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All Missile/Torp Ordinance should cost zero pts to equip on small base arc ships. 

All small base arc ships should have missiles or torpedoes. Including Soontir and Kylo. Yep.

All small base arcs should have zero point extra munitions built in. ( i.e. You can shoot ordinance twice during a game even without the reload action ).

All missiles/torpedoes should not spend their target lock to fire. Burn it all down.

Also...Krennic Vader will save X-Wing from the fires of Mount Doom. 

It is time for the Defensive AOE to end. 

Live Free, Stay Out Of Arc

*Not sure if I am even being sarcastic 

Edited by Boom Owl

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37 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

All Missile/Torp Ordinance should cost zero pts to equip on small base arc ships. 

All small base arc ships should have missiles or torpedoes. Including Soontir and Kylo. Yep.

All small base arcs should have zero point extra munitions built in. ( i.e. You can shoot ordinance twice during a game even without the reload action ).

All missiles/torpedoes should not spend their target lock to fire. Burn it all down.

Also...Krennic Vader will save X-Wing from the fires of Mount Doom. 

It is time for the Defensive AOE to end. 

Live Free, Stay Out Of Arc

*Not sure if I am even being sarcastic 

Honestly I'm having trouble disagreeing. Small arc based ships should have an advantage to firing in arc. It used to be the fact that they were cheaper benefitted them but the offense and defense mods have significantly outpaced a standard ships capabilities. Defenders have a white k turn and free evades and sit baarely in the competitive world.

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2 hours ago, catachanninja said:

Honestly I'm having trouble disagreeing. Small arc based ships should have an advantage to firing in arc. It used to be the fact that they were cheaper benefitted them but the offense and defense mods have significantly outpaced a standard ships capabilities. Defenders have a white k turn and free evades and sit baarely in the competitive world.

My biggest grip against all you paladins of primary arcs is that we had that, and it was high repositionary with full knowledge of the field and token stacking kingdom.

I'm having really an hard time preferring that to TLT

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6 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

My biggest grip against all you paladins of primary arcs is that we had that, and it was high repositionary with full knowledge of the field and token stacking kingdom.

I'm having really an hard time preferring that to TLT

I still vastly prefer that to TLT/Fat PWTs simply because dials still mattered then and it was possible to out guess your opponent (even if it was at times really hard). I've played both idiots flying Palp/Soontir and idiots flying Ghost/Fenn and I lost a lot more to one than the other...

Also there were at least some tradeoffs. The price paid for all that arc dodging and tokens was often not getting to shoot either so that turn was largely a wash, not to mention many of them weren't exactly offensive powerhouses to begin with. Where as many modern lists have both massive defensive abilities and don't have to sacrifice their offense to get them

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9 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

My biggest grip against all you paladins of primary arcs is that we had that, and it was high repositionary with full knowledge of the field and token stacking kingdom.

I'm having really an hard time preferring that to TLT

Dont take this the wrong way...but my grip with people that disagree with me on the generally higher quality of small base arc gameplay is that they are wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I still vastly prefer that to TLT/Fat PWTs simply because dials still mattered then and it was possible to out guess your opponent (even if it was at times really hard). I've played both idiots flying Palp/Soontir and idiots flying Ghost/Fenn and I lost a lot more to one than the other...

Also there were at least some tradeoffs. The price paid for all that arc dodging and tokens was often not getting to shoot either so that turn was largely a wash, not to mention many of them weren't exactly offensive powerhouses to begin with. Where as many modern lists have both massive defensive abilities and don't have to sacrifice their offense to get them

I hate Fat PWT as dearly as you.

But TLT (and HLC Dash) has a tradeoff. I like to play range control against them, far more than seeing an ace choosing to simply turtle up or barrel out of arcs with full knowledge of my position. Or having the same inquisitor survive after a block

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Dont take this the wrong way...but my grip with people that disagree with me on the generally higher quality of small base arc gameplay is that they are wrong.

Yeah, I put it mildly in my previous post, but I think that anyone who blindly praise arc play is wrong.

It would have been higher quality IF it doesn't translate, as it does and did, to out PS your opponent and play reactive with very few risks involved.

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26 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

My biggest grip against all you paladins of primary arcs is that we had that, and it was high repositionary with full knowledge of the field and token stacking kingdom.

I'm having really an hard time preferring that to TLT

Massive boring token stacking is almost as bad as turrets, I'd agree.

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3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Massive boring token stacking is almost as bad as turrets, I'd agree.

That I agree with. But im fairly sure giving small base arc ships more offense doesn't automatically translate to that.

Edited by Boom Owl

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2 hours ago, catachanninja said:

Honestly I'm having trouble disagreeing. Small arc based ships should have an advantage to firing in arc. It used to be the fact that they were cheaper benefitted them but the offense and defense mods have significantly outpaced a standard ships capabilities. Defenders have a white k turn and free evades and sit baarely in the competitive world.

I kind of feel the same way about PS 4 Silencers.  They're just loaded.  Great stat line, terrific upgrades, amazing dial, and they're just barely good enough to be competitive with power turrets, with a lot more room for misplay. 

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11 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

That I agree with. But im fairly sure giving small base arc ships more offense doesn't automatically translate to that.

I think part of the secret to how all of this happened is that it did. Whisper was both an incredible arc dodger and token stacker. The difference was that she also was an offensive powerhouse with 4 native reds, FCS, and a crew slot. Future waves in development got balanced against that and well we can all see the results.

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Interesting article that came up from a side discussion I was having with someone on collusion/bribery (in magic):

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=3979&writer=JJ+Stors&articledate=4-12-2004

Craziness. Writing papers (more or less) on the art of cheating within the rules.

I have played bad on purpose once in a kit tournament to make sure my son didn't go 0-x. Lets pretend I was "testing new approaches". Besides, I was flying a U-wing, my loss was expected ;)

I've also lost on purpose to an 11 year old showing up to his first tournament with his dad, and letting him Rey even used focuses, but warning him that other players will likely feel different about it and I'd side with them. Neither of them have been back, but he got a lot more out of that narrow win than I would have out of crushing a kid.

In summary, again, I don't get gamers that take games this seriously and I'm really questioning exposing my sons to said gamers...

Edited by drjkel

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7 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I think part of the secret to how all of this happened is that it did. Whisper was both an incredible arc dodger and token stacker. The difference was that she also was an offensive powerhouse with 4 native reds, FCS, and a crew slot. Future waves in development got balanced against that and well we can all see the results.

This also, i disagree with. 

Whispers problem was an ultra broken version of advanced sensors. 

You could give her native 10 red dice right now and she would still be bad. 

Edited by Boom Owl
**** im getting salty....sorry everyone...happy owl will return I promise

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10 minutes ago, drjkel said:

Craziness. Writing papers (more or less) on the art of cheating within the rules.

I have played bad on purpose once in a kit tournament to make sure my son didn't go x-0. Lets pretend I was "testing new approaches". Besides, I was flying a U-wing, my loss was expected ;)

I've also lost on purpose to an 11 year old showing up to his first tournament with his dad, and letting him Rey even used focuses, but warning him that other players will likely feel different about it and I'd side with them. Neither of them have been back, but he got a lot more out of that narrow win than I would have out of crushing a kid.

In summary, again, I don't get gamers that take games this seriously and I'm really questioning exposing my sons to said gamers...

I don't think you'll ever be able to create a tournament format that has the proper incentive structure to make every player want to win as hard as possible.

In the example you give, the tournament structure also failed, because like you said you threw a game vs. your son (which is totally fine, just means the tournament didn't select the better player).  Getting tournaments to properly incentivize what you want players to do is hard, and the problem has been around forever - http://www.thechesspedia.com/glossary/grandmaster-draw/, and while I'm not sure Magic's attempts to enumerate what the can/can't police have been successful, it appears to be working relatively well?

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Actually - there's a pretty big disconnect in general in X-Wing, because so many of us want something different from tournaments

One crowd just wants a good opportunity to get X games in against other people.

Another crowd wants a competitive experience where all players are doing their best to meaningfully compete in the tournament.

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5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Its probably time for me to just email my complaints about gameplay to Back To Dials like I used to. Best to preserve the joyfullness of this thread as much as possible.

Don't let that feedback email go to waste, clearly they want feedback.

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11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Actually - there's a pretty big disconnect in general in X-Wing, because so many of us want something different from tournaments

One crowd just wants a good opportunity to get X games in against other people.

Another crowd wants a competitive experience where all players are doing their best to meaningfully compete in the tournament.

So much this.

If I've learned anything from my player survey is that everyone is a special snowflake that plays for wildly different reasons. There's no way to make everyone happy. I like trying new things all the time, my son is in it for the movement phase, some really care about winning, etc.

If anything, actually playing x-wing was the main reason, so our people haven't written it off. The community itself was a huge reason though.

I wish I had time to go deeper in the data, but with n=38, it doesn't feel like it's worth the time investment.

I chose to do more off the wall events because my interest in the competitive game waned as soon as I started reliably making top cuts, seeing as I'd proved to myself I could. At this point, I prefer to see what people can do outside of the meta. I like newness and I get to impose it ;)

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1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

But TLT (and HLC Dash) has a tradeoff. I like to play range control against them, far more than seeing an ace choosing to simply turtle up or barrel out of arcs with full knowledge of my position. Or having the same inquisitor survive after a block

I think the lists that are problematic don't particularly have a tradeoff. TLT on the Ghost is hard, or depending on your list impossible, to doughnut due to the 160 degrees of R1 primaries (and since only a sliver of your base has to be in the arc it's realistically closer to 220+)  and the PS 11 boost. Dash I feel like gets beat in list building and not on the table which I don't particularly like. You either have PS 7+ stuff with reposition to exploit his weakness or you don't and lose. He's probably balanced against the type of lists you (and I) like to run but I'm not sure he's good for the game overall.

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21 minutes ago, Brunas said:

In the example you give, the tournament structure also failed, because like you said you threw a game vs. your son (which is totally fine, just means the tournament didn't select the better player).  Getting tournaments to properly incentivize what you want players to do is hard, and the problem has been around forever - http://www.thechesspedia.com/glossary/grandmaster-draw/, and while I'm not sure Magic's attempts to enumerate what the can/can't police have been successful, it appears to be working relatively well?

We were both 0-3 at the time, fighting for last place, no one cared ;)

I learned that I wasn't restrictive enough for that alt format as some lists were dangerously close to tournament lists while others could only be politely called meme list.

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5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Actually - there's a pretty big disconnect in general in X-Wing, because so many of us want something different from tournaments

One crowd just wants a good opportunity to get X games in against other people.

Another crowd wants a competitive experience where all players are doing their best to meaningfully compete in the tournament.

I agree with this.  If I had a dollar for every time someone told me they were showing up to some big event and just hoping to get X amount of wins....I'd have at least a decent handful of dollars.  Many (most?) people acknowledge they don't have the skillset, nor the inclination to develop the skillset, necessary to win a big tournament.  They're there for the experience.  What that results in is a bunch of relatively easy wins for the "try-hards".  That's a kinda "meh" experience for the "just for fun" player, and certainly not a test for the "try-hard".

On the collusion topic, in the two big events I've gone to, I've seen that plenty.  I've seen players who know each other just decide, "I don't want to block your success, here you go...here's a win".  I don't know if I care one way or another, particularly since a friend and I discussed doing that at Adepticon if we got matched up, but I'd wager it does muddy rankings when it happens.  It's also no cool to get rolled by someone, then see them concede to their buddy two games later when they realize their MOV will keep them out of the cut.  Kinda bull, but...whatever.

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