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Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast

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So I just wanna say thank you for listener 4 from jolly old Britain. 

I only get to go to one regional a year and I'm not that good at x wing. Last regional I went to I was 1-5. Super fun time but I really wanted to do better.

I listened to listener 4 when it came out, and first thing I swapped my janky *** list for a Dash/Miranda. I practiced loads with this list, especially against myself running meta lists. I'd even cheat against myself, making it harder for Dash and Miranda, or even practicing with 1 ship and seeing how I could try and not get tabled with only Dash or Miranda.

Long story short, I went there hoping to get 3-3 and grab a zuckuss promo but I made the top 8. So thank you for being super helpful and helping me scrub away the scrub!

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7 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

So question on that- Did Chris deem that X-WingJunkies counted as a podcast for when your son tabled them?

If he did, Canada Post lost the package (which is not impossible, my Mynock loot is also MIA). We'll get the Millenium Condor guys in May anyways, ;) I doubt their bounty has been claimed yet.

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2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

and as a follow-up: why is so commonly perceived that playing an ace with high PS repositionary ability and token stacking is harder than mostly anything else in the game?

Because it's a style that mimics skill.  The ultimate expression of skill in this game, historically, is increasing your "shots taken" to "shots recieved" ratio.  Repositioning aces do this (compared to combo-wing turret and near-turret styles), they just dont do it totally based on player skill.  Dodging arcs isn't that hard with Barrel Roll + boost, and your price of failure is low if you guess the wrong move and just token stack instead.  Getting blocked, repositioning badly, or getting caught in truly horrific arcs can still be catastrophic failures.  It should be noted that even though ace styles have more failure modes than combo-turret styles, that doesn't mean they're skill heavy.  It just means it takes more skill than, say, Ghost/Fenn (among others).

My own metric for how much skill a list takes is how many decisions are made in ambiguity.  Having to plan for multiple futures is certainly more skill intensive than responding to a single situation.

Edited by Biophysical

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11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

 It just means it takes more skill than, say, Ghost/Fenn (among others).

 

That's a point I'll never agree too: once Fenn is gone (and let's be honest: it goes down, on average on the second turn of engagement, sometimes at first, sometimes at the third. At least against a decent player) you are basically arc dodging with a ps 3 ship. Sure you have plenty of passive modifiers that makes you shoot harder and possibly defend, but you are still the first ship moving against 90% of the meta. It ain't that easy (and, now that everyone not living on the moon have experience against it, tournament results testifies that's true)

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30 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Because it's a style that mimics skill.  The ultimate expression of skill in this game, historically, is increasing your "shots taken" to "shots recieved" ratio.  Repositioning aces do this (compared to combo-wing turret and near-turret styles), they just dont do it totally based on player skill.  Dodging arcs isn't that hard with Barrel Roll + boost, and your price of failure is low if you guess the wrong move and just token stack instead.  Getting blocked, repositioning badly, or getting caught in truly horrific arcs can still be catastrophic failures.  It should be noted that even though ace styles have more failure modes than combo-turret styles, that doesn't mean they're skill heavy.  It just means it takes more skill than, say, Ghost/Fenn (among others).

My own metric for how much skill a list takes is how many decisions are made in ambiguity.  Having to plan for multiple futures is certainly more skill intensive than responding to a single situation.

 

14 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

That's a point I'll never agree too: once Fenn is gone (and let's be honest: it goes down, on average on the second turn of engagement, sometimes at first, sometimes at the third. At least against a decent player) you are basically arc dodging with a ps 3 ship. Sure you have plenty of passive modifiers that makes you shoot harder and possibly defend, but you are still the first ship moving against 90% of the meta. It ain't that easy (and, now that everyone not living on the moon have experience against it, tournament results testifies that's true)

Sort of this on both places.

 

So, if it’s a full double reposition, your actual concern is not being blocked, and mostly to identify the moves that allow you to get out with both repositions as necessary. Secondarily, doing all of that, maximizing the times you shoot.

 

its probably why I was more drawn to single reposition ships (whisper, mindlink fenn, though I ultimately removed a lot of the fear of that fenn, too).

 

its also why I don’t like straight jousters though - some reposition is just FUN. Even just a single BR or boost just feels fun to move around the board, even if to don’t use it that often. Also, and a bit more importantly, having 1 reposition seems to (usually) open up the number possibilities you can do, which is fun.

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15 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

That's a point I'll never agree too: once Fenn is gone (and let's be honest: it goes down, on average on the second turn of engagement, sometimes at first, sometimes at the third. At least against a decent player) you are basically arc dodging with a ps 3 ship. Sure you have plenty of passive modifiers that makes you shoot harder and possibly defend, but you are still the first ship moving against 90% of the meta. It ain't that easy (and, now that everyone not living on the moon have experience against it, tournament results testifies that's true)

I mean, the first 2-3 turns of combat are absolutely the most important turns in the game, and are a huge chance for the Ghost to bring devastating primary shots into play and avoid damage from a coherent squad before it has to turn around, but whatever.    

 

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3 hours ago, drjkel said:

If he did, Canada Post lost the package (which is not impossible, my Mynock loot is also MIA). We'll get the Millenium Condor guys in May anyways, ;) I doubt their bounty has been claimed yet.

Hmm... I'll have to double check what's been mailed out.  I'm not very good at this whole quick followup business, so I suspect somehow it's just sitting on a shelf somewhere here...

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1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sort of this on both places.

So, if it’s a full double reposition, your actual concern is not being blocked, and mostly to identify the moves that allow you to get out with both repositions as necessary. Secondarily, doing all of that, maximizing the times you shoot.

its probably why I was more drawn to single reposition ships (whisper, mindlink fenn, though I ultimately removed a lot of the fear of that fenn, too).

its also why I don’t like straight jousters though - some reposition is just FUN. Even just a single BR or boost just feels fun to move around the board, even if to don’t use it that often. Also, and a bit more importantly, having 1 reposition seems to (usually) open up the number possibilities you can do, which is fun.

I have found that only in casual games is double re-positioning consistently relevant. But in the competitive game?

I haven't taken much time to draft the list below (just grabbed the Top 50 from Meta Wing last month) so the comments below are definitely not super accurate

  • 7 lists can arc dodge
  • 24 lists can kite 
  • 33 lists can defensive mod stack 
  • 15 lists can bombs
  • 13 lists can regen
  • 16 lists can be arc dodged
  • 4 list are so free the only thing they are is 100% Arc Dodgeable

Obviously the frequency with which these things are used matters and analysis is pretty thin here. Still I think this matches my experiences at or near the Top Cut. If you go into a tournament thinking Double Re-position Arc Dodging is a fundamental part of your lists toolkit you are probably just playing semi-casually and haven't admitted it to yourself yet. Defensive Token Stacking is where the game is won since it just works. Token stacking while you kite is even better for what I hope are fairly obvious reasons ( hint: Low PS Turrets Arc Dodge to ).

Ship Names # Squadrons # Tournaments Arc Dodge Def Mod Stack Regen Kite Bombs 100% Arc Dodgeable
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, K-wing 74 56     1 1 1  
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, VCX-100, Attack Shuttle 176 73 1 1   1    
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, Auzituck Gunship, K-wing 26 22   1 1   1  
TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Adv. Prototype, Lambda-class Shuttle 81 53   1       1
Auzituck Gunship, YT-1300 95 52   1   1    
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, T-70 X-wing, Auzituck Gunship, TIE Fighter 9 8   1        
Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship 31 21   1        
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, Auzituck Gunship, ARC-170 23 19   1        
Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Advanced 42 22 1         1
TIE Silencer, TIE Advanced, TIE Fighter 5 5 1 1       1
T-70 X-wing, YT-2400 63 44   1 1 1    
Auzituck Gunship, T-70 X-wing, K-wing 12 10   1 1   1  
K-wing, YT-1300 20 17     1 1 1  
Lancer-class Pursuit Craft, JumpMaster 5000 68 41   1   1    
Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE/sf Fighter 27 19           1
K-wing, YT-2400 37 28     1 1 1  
Lancer-class Pursuit Craft, Lancer-class Pursuit Craft 30 26   1   1    
Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE Advanced 2 2 1         1
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, Auzituck Gunship, T-70 X-wing 31 26   1 1      
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, Auzituck Gunship, Y-wing, X-wing 9 9   1        
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, T-70 X-wing 4 4     1 1 1  
Auzituck Gunship, T-70 X-wing, ARC-170 6 6   1 1      
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, TIE Fighter, YT-1300 6 6   1   1    
Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship 13 13   1        
TIE Defender, TIE Defender, TIE Defender 35 23   1       1
TIE Adv. Prototype, VT-49 Decimator 19 12   1   1    
TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Adv. Prototype, TIE Defender 6 6   1       1
TIE/sf Fighter, VT-49 Decimator 26 18   1   1    
Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE Defender, TIE Defender 8 8   1       1
TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Interceptor, Lambda-class Shuttle 3 3 1 1       1
TIE Silencer, TIE Striker, TIE/sf Fighter 5 4 1 1       1
T-70 X-wing, YT-1300 44 31   1 1 1    
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, B/SF-17 Bomber, Scurrg H-6 Bomber 10 9   1   1 1  
TIE Silencer, TIE Silencer, TIE/sf Fighter 5 3           1
TIE Striker, TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Defender 3 3           1
Sheathipede-class Shuttle, T-70 X-wing, K-wing 4 3   1 1 1 1  
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, Scurrg H-6 Bomber, Scurrg H-6 Bomber 12 12       1 1  
Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE Silencer 22 21 1         1
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, JumpMaster 5000 10 8       1 1  
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, Scurrg H-6 Bomber 9 8       1 1  
VT-49 Decimator, TIE Defender 16 13   1   1    
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, Lancer-class Pursuit Craft 13 12   1   1 1  
TIE/sf Fighter, TIE/fo Fighter, Lambda-class Shuttle 2 2   1       1
Auzituck Gunship, K-wing, HWK-290 2 1   1 1 1 1  
Auzituck Gunship, Auzituck Gunship, ARC-170 6 6   1 1      
Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, TIE Aggressor, TIE Bomber 3 3       1    
Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing, Alpha-class Star Wing 6 6           1
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, B-wing 10 10       1 1  
Scurrg H-6 Bomber, YT-2400 10 10       1 1  
TIE/sf Fighter, TIE Defender, Lambda-class Shuttle 8 7   1       1
      7 33 13 24 15 16

 

Edited by Boom Owl

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4 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

and as a follow-up: why is so commonly perceived that playing an ace with high PS repositionary ability and token stacking is harder than mostly anything else in the game?

I suspect it's like playing blue control in magic, having near infinite counterspells and removal along with the best creature in the game (morphling) lets people feel smart because they're making "decisions "

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Listening to Kraytent - dang it, so much contempt for us, you're not even hiding the wholesomeness. I agree. The social aspect is huge for making a tournament enjoyable. The point is to go out and have fun, and yeah, laughing away with your opponent really changes the atmosphere of the game, winning or losing. Preferably winning, but for some it's not a victory condition on for the day. Admittedly, it's hard to laugh with a Ghost taunting you under it's cloak of invincibility but.... Yeah. (yes, the cloak is an illusion, but it still feels bad...)

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3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

My own metric for how much skill a list takes is how many decisions are made in ambiguity.  Having to plan for multiple futures is certainly more skill intensive than responding to a single situation.

I really like this definition. So by this definition, what's the hardest thing to fly? Ordnance Y-Wings? Lambda Shuttles? Non-Soontir Interceptors? 

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I've always thought that the hard part of playing a palpace list, especially the old school interceptors one, was making something more useful out of the lambda than simply using it as a palpa carrying biggs.

 

Probably the hardest list is brobots while you are out psed by your opponent

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26 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I really like this definition. So by this definition, what's the hardest thing to fly? Ordnance Y-Wings? Lambda Shuttles? Non-Soontir Interceptors? 

Lambdas definitely seem hardest, but not just because they have to plan multiple turns in advance.  Not being able to kill stuff is just hard, regardless of predictive ability. 

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I haven’t made it all the way through this solo episode, but I like it. I have a couple thoughts related to it..

- After listening to Listener 4, I was in. It took me a few weeks, maybe a month, before it realized I wasn’t in. 

- There’s talk about self-imposed restriction we have as obstacles to winning. If you decide that winning isn’t paramount for you, you realize that netlisting is a self-imposed restriction to fun.  How’s it feel to netlist and not make the cut?  Can’t feel good.

- The reason why you guys feel confused by why you have to remind people to have fun might be because you’re also telling people to quite purposefully do stuff which isn’t fun in the pursuit of winning. Take the best list you can tolerate?  Why play a game to tolerate playing it?

I really don’t agree with the winning approach to the game, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it.  

I do think if the X-Wing upper echelon of players skipped over this winning approach, ignored the prisoners dilemma, and just played with what they actually loved (within reason), they’d still find of ton of success, there’d be less salt and the meta would reflect that in a positive manner. Marcel still running triple jumps is a single data point to back that up. 

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Brobots were the first list I took to a tournament, before I even had thrusters. I went 1-3 with them, the last loss being a bit affected by the call 10 min into the match from my wife that our 2 year old had fallen off the couch, split his scalp, and was in the ER waiting for glue/stitches. We're a one car family, she had it, and the hospital is actually 2 blocks from the FLGS. It was simpler for all involved to finish my game with my then 6 y.o. watching me and then walking over, we made it in time to just barely avoid the waiting room, but I sure was rattled!

One thing I learned is that you do not joust B-wings, that went poorly. The other thing is that people's expectations are almost set in stone. Everyone kept being surprised by the Adv Sensor prox mine followed by a sloop.

It's been over 2 years and they've yet to come out again, even though I have 4 now, because I value newness above all. I really should bring them out again.

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Can we take a moment to reflect on how wholesome FFG assumes some of the player base will be?  There are rules that only work if both players are going in wanting to come out friendly with the other player.  Particularly in legion, I can snipe opponents form across the map 50% of the time.  Super fair.  But somehow, these rules don't get exploited relentlessly, because, on some level, enough of the people playing want to play the game and enjoy the company of their opponent.  Yes, people fortress, and it is the correct competitive strategy sometimes, but still, people don't (from my experience) just go to final salvo unless it is a tournament that really matters - people still want to play the game.

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

How’s it feel to netlist and not make the cut?  Can’t feel good.

Netlisting and fun is not necessarily mutually exclusive though. The key is the list itself. The current meta powerful netlists are not fun to me. The entire concepts seem unfun. I've spoke to people who claim Ghost/Fenn is fun for them... Congrats? If you're netlisting a list that is unfun to you, and you miss cut, ok... that'll feel really bad.

Unrelated topic... Anybody figure out an approach vs trajectory simulator yet? I bombed again last night (in that, I was on the receiving end of bombs) and so far my only tactic seems to be - BE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP! Unfortunately, I can't rely on winning from over there either so I'm trying to puzzle this one out. Tried to range control from R4 to R1... but that doesn't work a whole lot either since that means range controlling from the point of where my opponent's ship was instead of where it will be. Of course, the other option is just to bring big beefy ships that can't take a few hits... Ate 3 out of 4 bombs and 2 of 2 harpoon missile from Nym and still came up on top this past weekend. Not sure I like list building as a solution unless no other choice - it means I'm giving up and hard countered if I brought the wrong ships.

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

Can we take a moment to reflect on how wholesome FFG assumes some of the player base will be?  There are rules that only work if both players are going in wanting to come out friendly with the other player.  Particularly in legion, I can snipe opponents form across the map 50% of the time.  Super fair.  But somehow, these rules don't get exploited relentlessly, because, on some level, enough of the people playing want to play the game and enjoy the company of their opponent.  Yes, people fortress, and it is the correct competitive strategy sometimes, but still, people don't (from my experience) just go to final salvo unless it is a tournament that really matters - people still want to play the game.

Absolutely the assumption is that players will play the game. Else - why make the game? It could have been X-Wing - the Dice Game had final salvo been the ultimate goal. The vast majority of people set out to the play the game, myself included, but even I look at the bomb wall and ask the question - why am I going to go over there?

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