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3 minutes ago, RStan said:

No, Lars Squad. I've actually never heard of Rad Squadron in MI. Nikko Leggett and Matt Ciaramitaro made it into Day 2 for Lars Squad along with Phildo (Rook Squad) and Kyle (another local) in terms of who I know from MI that made it into Day 2. 

Not sure where Rad is, but they are an American group as well, and there was three or more of them.

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Here's the swiss version of the faction split graphs I posted on Friday. It's filtered in the same way, so it contains incomplete swiss results and will be biased towards the top end. Since this is swiss it includes all the kits in the juggler as well, so there's are a lot more lists. The current gap between rebels and scum is way bigger than any time in the past two years. Generally rebels have been the most played faction for most of the list juggler's history, with the only notable exception being imperials in wave 8.

Also here's a couple showing swiss arc/turret type over time. Results for cuts etc are here.

CUWudCt.png

Primary means primary arc only and none of the others, but the other categories aren't exclusive. AuxRear is a rear-facing auxilliary arc, Aux180 is the 180 degree arc. Special counts all VCXs regardless of loadout. TurretSlot is any ship with an equipped turret upgrade (not slot only). The graph below is similar, but to avoid double counting ships K-Wings are treated as PWTs only if they don't have a turret equipped and Ghosts are only counted as Special.

aozS5ja.png

There's been a ton of releases that have non-primary arcs over the last few waves so you would expect the primary only ship fraction to decrease but it's depressingly low, < 50% of ships and < 40% of points for both swiss and elimination at the moment. Turrets had a big boost when wave XI came out. The only substantial jump in primary arcs is the release of guns for hire, which supports the idea that Harpoons made arcs relevant again, but the PWT fraction does drop here with the Jumpmaster nerf. There's no particular arc/turret type pushing primary arcs out in waves 12/13 though the biggest growth is rear-facing auxilliary arcs.

 

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16 minutes ago, apoapsis said:

There's been a ton of releases that have non-primary arcs over the last few waves so you would expect the primary only ship fraction to decrease but it's depressingly low, < 50% of ships and < 40% of points for both swiss and elimination at the moment. Turrets had a big boost when wave XI came out. The only substantial jump in primary arcs is the release of guns for hire, which supports the idea that Harpoons made arcs relevant again, but the PWT fraction does drop here with the Jumpmaster nerf. There's no particular arc/turret type pushing primary arcs out in waves 12/13 though the biggest growth is rear-facing auxilliary arcs.

 

How much of those arcs in the cut are Poe, Corran or involved palpatine (Regen or palp aces)?

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13 hours ago, LagJanson said:

So... If one were to start learning arc dodging techniques, where would you start in this day of age? I'm not talking top level meta here, just learning how to fly. Is Fel the starting point or the ending point? 

It depends on how much you want to teach yourself the dodging part, kylo would be the way to go, I know you enjoy rebel jank so poe with r2 mech and vectored thrusters and push might be worth a go as well. If you want to really need to get out of arc, no evade token no palp is the way to do it.

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer that though lol.

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4 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

It depends on how much you want to teach yourself the dodging part, kylo would be the way to go, I know you enjoy rebel jank so poe with r2 mech and vectored thrusters and push might be worth a go as well. If you want to really need to get out of arc, no evade token no palp is the way to do it.

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer that though lol.

Eh.... Kind of?

Kylo is the epitome of unfair arc-dodging, and isn't super replicable elsewhere.

Soontir is mostly unhittable, so forgiving, and you'll learn to 1) not get blocked, and 2) not run so much you do nothing... but there aren't a ton of consequence outside of that.

Ditto for Inquisitor.

...So... basically, arc-dodging, as usually contemplated, is mostly a facade, or not particularly competitive.

The *actual* arc-dodger, as I would think of it, is Vader - he'll SUPER die if he's looked at, but you can reposition a lot, which is arc-dodging (NOW THIS IS PODRACING!)

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8 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

It depends on how much you want to teach yourself the dodging part, kylo would be the way to go, I know you enjoy rebel jank so poe with r2 mech and vectored thrusters and push might be worth a go as well. If you want to really need to get out of arc, no evade token no palp is the way to do it.

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer that though lol.

I'd start with lower PS stuff, honestly.  Get things that are pretty maneuverable, and learn to dodge arcs with dials and the occasional reposition before someone else moves.  Once you do that, switching to high PS is super easy.  

I first played Fel like a year ago after pretty much only mid PS, single repositioning stuff.  I'm pretty sure the longer I played him, the worse I got, because I stopped thinking about what other ships were going to do.

Edited by Biophysical

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25 minutes ago, apoapsis said:

There's no particular arc/turret type pushing primary arcs out in waves 12/13 though the biggest growth is rear-facing auxilliary arcs.

One point: a huge part of this was Quickdraw and by now is the Sheathipede. As we saw earlier, QD and Sheathipede are in every second imperial/rebel list.

It depends on the question again, but I think rear arcs are closer to primary arcs than turrets. So if we had to limit to two groups I would not count them as turret-like. Mobile arc and auxiliary (180 deg) can be seen as turrets because reliably and repeatedly dodging them is much more difficult than dodging rear arcs.

What do you guys think? Are 2 groups reasonable? Are 3 maybe better (normal, expanded (3 kinds of 180deg), 360deg)?

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Just now, GreenDragoon said:

One point: a huge part of this was Quickdraw and by now is the Sheathipede. As we saw earlier, QD and Sheathipede are in every second imperial/rebel list.

It depends on the question again, but I think rear arcs are closer to primary arcs than turrets. So if we had to limit to two groups I would not count them as turret-like. Mobile arc and auxiliary (180 deg) can be seen as turrets because reliably and repeatedly dodging them is much more difficult than dodging rear arcs.

What do you guys think? Are 2 groups reasonable? Are 3 maybe better (normal, expanded (3 kinds of 180deg), 360deg)?

Agreed, which is why the types in the lower graph are ordered as they are - Primary, bullseye, and rear, then mobile and 180, then PWT, then the secondary weapon turrets.

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Just now, catachanninja said:

It depends on how much you want to teach yourself the dodging part, kylo would be the way to go, I know you enjoy rebel jank so poe with r2 mech and vectored thrusters and push might be worth a go as well. If you want to really need to get out of arc, no evade token no palp is the way to do it.

I am probably not the most qualified person to answer that though lol.

I thought I'd give it a serious go and see if I learn something. I typically avoid these ships, true, but hey my competitive season is over until GenCon (assuming I even fly competitively there) so I've got some time to play with ideas and have fun with something new. Or, well, give something a try again in the case of arc dodging. It's been two years since I seriously gave it a go and I was REALLY bad then. It's also an excuse to put new ships on the board, so I'd likely shy away from Poe - I have a fair bit of T70 experience now.

The TIE Silencer may end up being the choice I take, because I've honestly not flown it yet.

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37 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

How much of those arcs in the cut are Poe, Corran or involved palpatine (Regen or palp aces)?

Also how many of those Aux arcs are Quickdraw and Sheathipedes? I assume that's your spike reason in aux arcs @apoapsis

Edited by RStan

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28 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

One point: a huge part of this was Quickdraw and by now is the Sheathipede. As we saw earlier, QD and Sheathipede are in every second imperial/rebel list.

It depends on the question again, but I think rear arcs are closer to primary arcs than turrets. So if we had to limit to two groups I would not count them as turret-like. Mobile arc and auxiliary (180 deg) can be seen as turrets because reliably and repeatedly dodging them is much more difficult than dodging rear arcs.

What do you guys think? Are 2 groups reasonable? Are 3 maybe better (normal, expanded (3 kinds of 180deg), 360deg)?

Quickdraw is barely a rear arc.  It's only really useful at Range 1 or to establish a FCS lock. 

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30 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

One point: a huge part of this was Quickdraw and by now is the Sheathipede. As we saw earlier, QD and Sheathipede are in every second imperial/rebel list.

It depends on the question again, but I think rear arcs are closer to primary arcs than turrets. So if we had to limit to two groups I would not count them as turret-like. Mobile arc and auxiliary (180 deg) can be seen as turrets because reliably and repeatedly dodging them is much more difficult than dodging rear arcs.

What do you guys think? Are 2 groups reasonable? Are 3 maybe better (normal, expanded (3 kinds of 180deg), 360deg)?

180 arc on the Auzituck that has white 2 turns, yeah that could go in the turret category with Mobile arc, but 180 arc on the YV-666 that has red 2 turns and white 3 turns on a large base, I'd say no. It sounds odd to split them up, but if we're comparing them to turrets, the YV-666 is much less like a turret or mobile arc than the Auzituck is. 

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7 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Quickdraw is barely a rear arc.  It's only really useful at Range 1 or to establish a FCS lock. 

Yep, Quickdraw is a thing because a ghost ship for a round or two is one of the strongest abilities in the game.

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46 minutes ago, RStan said:

180 arc on the Auzituck that has white 2 turns, yeah that could go in the turret category with Mobile arc, but 180 arc on the YV-666 that has red 2 turns and white 3 turns on a large base, I'd say no. It sounds odd to split them up, but if we're comparing them to turrets, the YV-666 is much less like a turret or mobile arc than the Auzituck is. 

I agree. I have actually written the exact same argument into my accompanying post for all this data analysis stuff (eta: soon tm)

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3 hours ago, LagJanson said:

I thought I'd give it a serious go and see if I learn something. I typically avoid these ships, true, but hey my competitive season is over until GenCon (assuming I even fly competitively there) so I've got some time to play with ideas and have fun with something new. Or, well, give something a try again in the case of arc dodging. It's been two years since I seriously gave it a go and I was REALLY bad then. It's also an excuse to put new ships on the board, so I'd likely shy away from Poe - I have a fair bit of T70 experience now.

The TIE Silencer may end up being the choice I take, because I've honestly not flown it yet.

You know thinking about this more. 

I suggest running a PTL Prockets Jake Farrell with VI/Autothrusters at first or PS9 Lone Wolf or Predator Vader. 

The Kylo Silencer is incredible fun and a serious brain puzzle due to the advanced sensors matrix multiplier effect. But its almost to flexible for learning. You want something thats slightly more restricted. 

PS9 Vader or Jake really are ideal training ground for playing an arc ship. Gets the right gears turning. Forces you to predict rather than exclusively react...and even if your moving last...repositiong at all means certain death. This is especially true for Vader who doesnt have autothrusters to fall back on if you visualize a boost/barrel roll on the edge of Range 3 wrong. 

So yea...Kylo is stupid fun. Hard in his own way but advanced optics + autothrusters + title helps so much. And advanced sensors means your near unblockable or dont care if you do get blocked. 

Vader to me is where its at for learning this kinda thing since you dont even have the luxury of autothrusters to save you if your repositioning to much. 

Also PTL Corran Horn with R2 instead of R2D2. Love that ship and run it all the time with just a U-Wing to see how far I can get.

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

You know thinking about this more. 

I suggest running a PTL Prockets Jake Farrell with VI/Autothrusters at first or PS9 Lone Wolf or Predator Vader. 

The Kylo Silencer is incredible fun and a serious brain puzzle due to the advanced sensors matrix multiplier effect. But its almost to flexible for learning. You want something thats slightly more restricted. 

PS9 Vader or Jake really are ideal training ground for playing an arc ship. Gets the right gears turning. Forces you to predict rather than exclusively react...and even if your moving last...repositiong at all means certain death. This is especially true for Vader who doesnt have autothrusters to fall back on if you visualize a boost/barrel roll on the edge of Range 3 wrong. 

So yea...Kylo is stupid fun. Hard in his own way but advanced optics + autothrusters + title helps so much. And advanced sensors means your near unblockable or dont care if you do get blocked. 

Vader to me is where its at for learning this kinda thing since you dont even have the luxury of autothrusters to save you if your repositioning to much. 

Also PTL Corran Horn with R2 instead of R2D2. Love that ship and run it all the time with just a U-Wing to see how far I can get.

Hah! Now Jake would be too much fun. Haven't tried Jake in a bit, for reasons, but hey now's the time. So the recommendation here is to learn in hard mode - something that dies. I'm actually game for that.

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What about PTL/BB-8? It's fun on pretty much anything that can take it, but I am really enjoying it on Poe right now (gonna try it on Wedge next). You have crazy action-efficient Kylo-like reposition on the few green moves on your dial, and then you have to decide when you want to instead use one of your non-green moves and not get reposition. The mind games it plays with your opponent are quite fun. 

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18 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Hah! Now Jake would be too much fun. Haven't tried Jake in a bit, for reasons, but hey now's the time. So the recommendation here is to learn in hard mode - something that dies. I'm actually game for that.

Its tricky because arc dodging is genuinely a rarely possible tactic. Against a number of imperial lists it matters for sure, and against a handful of Scum lists you have to consider it. But outside of that most of the time is spent trying to range band dodge or turtle token through a non-4x TLT turret, if you have autothrusters being out of arc of a turret helps to I guess. Still I feel like the challenge becomes knowing when to dodge dip dive duck or dodge or when none of that matters more than defense mods since pretty much every list still shoots you if your in its target lock range.

Also Jake is probably to hard mode? Though running him with a procket is super fun no doubt. 

I cant claim to be an expert at any of this either. Early on I committed to basically only running Vader always and its taken awhile but its slowly paying off. Though gradually becoming clear that there will eventually be a sad limit to how much my decisions can actually do to keep him alive. Though I definitely am not anywhere near that point yet since I still cant eye ball staying inside and outside of Range Bands perfectly yet. Also I put those boost and barrel roll templates on the table way way way to often for Vader's health.

Edited by Boom Owl

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16 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Hah! Now Jake would be too much fun. Haven't tried Jake in a bit, for reasons, but hey now's the time. So the recommendation here is to learn in hard mode - something that dies. I'm actually game for that.

Intensity Jake is too great.  If I recall correctly, you get to focus-jake-intensity-jake iinterrupt-intensity again-intensity exhausts.  Pretty great, and you end with no stress, at least 2 focuses, and a focus/evade.  Love it.

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4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Eh.... Kind of?

Kylo is the epitome of unfair arc-dodging, and isn't super replicable elsewhere.

Soontir is mostly unhittable, so forgiving, and you'll learn to 1) not get blocked, and 2) not run so much you do nothing... but there aren't a ton of consequence outside of that.

Ditto for Inquisitor.

...So... basically, arc-dodging, as usually contemplated, is mostly a facade, or not particularly competitive.

The *actual* arc-dodger, as I would think of it, is Vader - he'll SUPER die if he's looked at, but you can reposition a lot, which is arc-dodging (NOW THIS IS PODRACING!)

@LagJanson I have no idea how I forgot vader, I highly recommend vader. Trav plz forgive. 

 

 

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