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@S4ul0

Different kinds of fun. Some are in it for star wars and narration. Others purely for the challenge.


Personally I think that paid online events are a mistake because cheating is much easier and the inhibitions behind a screen vanish. I also think they are not as fun, for reasons you mention. But not playing at all is even less fun.

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11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Thanks for the elucidation and yes, I agree with this bit.

My post was actually kinda rhetorical and more a comment on the uselessness of the image as an illustration of general mindlessness. Which I assumed was the intention behind it.

Agreed. I think the turn before is a better demo, and we don't have an even better one because we don't have much tape of it being played

Quote

I thought it had surprising applicability in demonstrating how people have a tendency to see only their preconceptions.

That they then apply in broad strokes to everyone.... Which, full circle, brings us back to the quotation.

How Redline avoids jousting that mass of awesome dials, I have no idea. And honestly, little interest, show me Zealous Recruits attempting it :D

With recruits I'd be more worried about avoiding side turret shots ;)

Edited by jagsba

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The issue with that screenshot is that it feels very much cherry picked to support one narrative. It’s Redline staring down a bunch of Nantexes, but where else can or should Redline be? Should he barrel roll into other bullseyes? Should he boost into more range 1 shots? Or should he stand and try to initiative kill a Nantex?

The real concern with this situation, if I recall correctly, was that the flanking ships weren’t in position to capitalize (unless the argument here is that the biggest brains would flank with Redline, or better yet, flank with all of their ships, the mythical OmniFlank where the opponent just points into the gap between your ships and tips his cap). Conceivably if the flankers had been at the engagement in good position, then you might be trading Redline for two Nantexes here, which feels less bad. But showing the whole board state and discussing where the strategy failed to execute here makes for a less glib response than posting a screen grab of 15% of the boardstate and walking away.

Mostly I just think it is beyond useless showing clunky medium/large ships sitting in a bunch of bullseyes, because against a half-awake Nantex player who has their mind set on getting to that point, of course they are.

That ideal trade in the second paragraph is my only real concern with Nantexes. Trading Redline for two Nantexes should be a slam dunk, but there are still four of the things left, enough to win most endgames (even vs. Vader/Whisper which I believe was the case here). A well executed flank with ideal damage being dealt leading to situations that are still lopsided feels really problematic. The Nantex list just always feels like it has a spare ship, which means even well executed strategies with favourable dice are only somewhat effective. That’s my problem with Nantex. Winning against them feels like praying that they make a mistake and they roll bad just so that I can get to even odds, where that same combination is a decisive win in most other reasonable matchups.

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

@S4ul0

Different kinds of fun. Some are in it for star wars and narration. Others purely for the challenge.


Personally I think that paid online events are a mistake because cheating is much easier and the inhibitions behind a screen vanish. I also think they are not as fun, for reasons you mention. But not playing at all is even less fun.

GSP made an effort to mantain the competitive enviroment alive. I think the mistake is treat those tournaments at the same level.

Enjoy the streaming, take notes, play the tournaments if you want, but don't worry too much by the results. 

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1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I think part of the issue *might* be those that have never played online (or just picked it up) seeing online play as not serious, competitive, real X-Wing or whatevs.

Sure, not everyone plays online but many do.  I've been in the Vassal League since 2015 IIRC, an I can tell you the online community is as intense and cerebral (usually) and even more experimental than tabletop X-Wing.

Yeah, I find the dismissive mentality towards online play as not serious, not competative, or not having any bearing on the "real" game is off. But I gather most folks that are in these Galaxies tournaments are treating them as seriously as regionals/opens and will treat the winner of the Coruscant final in a similar manner to the winner of Worlds. 

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Maybe(tm). Personally he's on the ace side of the obscenity clause for me, but not so far over I'd begrudge anyone saying he ain't

How I view it is Advanced Sensors Redline is an ace, regular Redline is not. He's more akin to Wedge without Advanced Sensors than he is to any traditional ace.

10 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

That’s my problem with Nantex. Winning against them feels like praying that they make a mistake and they roll bad just so that I can get to even odds, where that same combination is a decisive win in most other reasonable matchups.

I think you nailed my sentiments right here. If the Nantex roll even slightly well on defense (even if only on the initial engagement), the game is likely lost.

13 minutes ago, jagsba said:

With recruits I'd be more worried about avoiding side turret shots

Indeed. Instead of going for the bullseye, the Nantex turns away from Fangs and fires 6 turrets into them.

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@DoubleDown11 @5050Saint there are more turns and a whole deployment that leads up to that turn. Is it easier for bullseyes to line up on medium/large base ships, sure. Should Redline have had Adv Sensors in the list building phase, maybe? We can keep cherry picking screenshot after screenshot, but we all know there are plenty of factors that could've helped avoid how that Redline ended up there. I haven't watched the game, nor care to, but I'm pretty sure between rock placement, deployment and the turns even leading up to the screenshot of the turn before, Redline's predictable location could've been avoided and probably not avoided all Nantex shots, but certainly could've been in a better place than he ended up in.  

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24 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

y5nmuV9.png

Chumby, this isn't jousting. Thonk or otherwise. Red is in a unfortunate position, but is clearly not jousting. He did'nt just drive straight at the bugs, he jockeyed for position for a few turns ensuring that all three of his ships would be on target in the same round from three different directions. That is not jousting. Red's options are to turn in and try to do as much damage as possible with two aces flanking, or commit further into the corner and still take damage. This isn't advanced sensors Redline who might have been able to deal with this.

What would you have done here with Redline that wouldn't have gotten him into a worse position the next turn? Anything to ship right, and he's dead. Anything to the left, and he's facing 2 board edges and not engaging, ensuring his death the next turn. Going straight and the doing a barrel roll is the only "safe" option, but basically ensures that he dies the next turn AND doesn't get a protorp off due to stress turning off white turns/actions. At least with turning in he gets to put damage in.

What the image you posted also ignores is that those two very acey, force-wielding ships flanking the remaining 5 PWAs only took 1 more of them out.

 

10 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

The issue with that screenshot is that it feels very much cherry picked to support one narrative. It’s Redline staring down a bunch of Nantexes, but where else can or should Redline be? Should he barrel roll into other bullseyes? Should he boost into more range 1 shots? Or should he stand and try to initiative kill a Nantex?

The real concern with this situation, if I recall correctly, was that the flanking ships weren’t in position to capitalize (unless the argument here is that the biggest brains would flank with Redline, or better yet, flank with all of their ships, the mythical OmniFlank where the opponent just points into the gap between your ships and tips his cap). Conceivably if the flankers had been at the engagement in good position, then you might be trading Redline for two Nantexes here, which feels less bad. But showing the whole board state and discussing where the strategy failed to execute here makes for a less glib response than posting a screen grab of 15% of the boardstate and walking away.

Mostly I just think it is beyond useless showing clunky medium/large ships sitting in a bunch of bullseyes, because against a half-awake Nantex player who has their mind set on getting to that point, of course they are.

That ideal trade in the second paragraph is my only real concern with Nantexes. Trading Redline for two Nantexes should be a slam dunk, but there are still four of the things left, enough to win most endgames (even vs. Vader/Whisper which I believe was the case here). A well executed flank with ideal damage being dealt leading to situations that are still lopsided feels really problematic. The Nantex list just always feels like it has a spare ship, which means even well executed strategies with favourable dice are only somewhat effective. That’s my problem with Nantex. Winning against them feels like praying that they make a mistake and they roll bad just so that I can get to even odds, where that same combination is a decisive win in most other reasonable matchups.

**So, I want to caveat this with something I suspect people will either not read, ignore, or dismiss, but this has nothing to do with nantexes, but rather aces players. A second caveat will be that I do believe spamtexes are undercosted, but the size and severity of the reaction to them has been... interesting.

 

I have seen a narrative from ace players over the years that when they lose games, they go back and throw up their hands and say there was nothing they could do, and almost doubly so against swarms (literally, insert vulture swarms, and even TIE swarms). 

Here, the narrative is a bit of "they came in from three angles [good!], and the swarm found one and killed it! What else could they have done?!" Answer: not much, but basically, that's the game, and it's not just nantexes. Droids would have done this, as well as a TIE swarm. So far, nantexes, here, aren't yet special.

 

Coming in from 3 angles just means the swarm has to "pick one" - but given they brought 6+ ships, they should be able to find that one. If you could bring 3 ships, and always hide all three from 6+ other ships, then something is wrong with the game. The nantexes went after the medium base, which ensured higher likelihoods of bullseyes (3 die shots + their toys). That's just smart. They have 3 agility, reducing the likelihood they get alpha -ed, and make a good trade on the exchange (literally swarm tactics 101).

 

So, going back... This is pretty classic ace vs swarm, and just because someone did the correct "split up" maneuver doesn't mean they deserve to win, it just shifts the odds away from 99/01. Shifts it to what new distribution of odds? I have no idea. But the point being that being mad they still lost, or extrapolating that because the aces lost, the swarm is inherently too good because it beat an ace list that didn't just straight-joust has some really deep assumptions in there.

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3 minutes ago, RStan said:

@DoubleDown11 @5050Saint there are more turns and a whole deployment that leads up to that turn. Is it easier for bullseyes to line up on medium/large base ships, sure. Should Redline have had Adv Sensors in the list building phase, maybe? We can keep cherry picking screenshot after screenshot, but we all know there are plenty of factors that could've helped avoid how that Redline ended up there. I haven't watched the game, nor care to, but I'm pretty sure between rock placement, deployment and the turns even leading up to the screenshot of the turn before, Redline's predictable location could've been avoided and probably not avoided all Nantex shots, but certainly could've been in a better place than he ended up in.  

 

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

So, going back... This is pretty classic ace vs swarm, and just because someone did the correct "split up" maneuver doesn't mean they deserve to win, it just shifts the odds away from 99/01. Shifts it to what new distribution of odds? I have no idea. But the point being that being mad they still lost, or extrapolating that because the aces lost, the swarm is inherently too good because it beat an ace list that didn't just straight-joust has some really deep assumptions in there.

My post was more of a rebuke to Chumbalaya saying that folks were just jousting 6 Nantex, which I have yet to truly see. I'm certain it happens, but it's not the primary reason 6 Nantex wins. He used that specific example from that match to prove his point of people jousting it. I was merely refuting that it was a joust. Mistakes were made by Redline before that point, but it's wasn't jousting.

The one list I did see set up to joust was Sloane Aggressors. To which, the Nantex rightly declined the joust and decided to be 6 Aces instead.

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8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Here, the narrative is a bit of "they came in from three angles [good!], and the swarm found one and killed it! What else could they have done?!" Answer: not much, but basically, that's the game, and it's not just nantexes. Droids would have done this, as well as a TIE swarm. So far, nantexes, here, aren't yet special.

The Aces player comes from 3 angles, but I don't see a positional advantage. As you say, the Nantex player picked and destroyed one and turned to the next one.

Is not a good aproach and can't capitalize the flank maneuver. 

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15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

The issue with that screenshot is that it feels very much cherry picked to support one narrative. It’s Redline staring down a bunch of Nantexes, but where else can or should Redline be?

I agree! It looks really bad for redline. It is not cherry picked however. If it was cherry picked it'd be a screen shot of before they killed the redline.

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Should he barrel roll into other bullseyes? Should he boost into more range 1 shots? Or should he stand and try to initiative kill a Nantex?

The image Saint posted of the turn before is the better example. At that point redlines next move pretty much has to be to turn into the lane and trade shots. The nantex have such a good box because redline telegraphed his move. 

Redline will at some point have to trade but the ace player could have leveraged a much better trade (r3, couple nantex in arc)

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

The real concern with this situation, if I recall correctly, was that the flanking ships weren’t in position to capitalize (unless the argument here is that the biggest brains would flank with Redline, or better yet, flank with all of their ships, the mythical OmniFlank where the opponent just points into the gap between your ships and tips his cap). Conceivably if the flankers had been at the engagement in good position, then you might be trading Redline for two Nantexes here, which feels less bad. But showing the whole board state and discussing where the strategy failed to execute here makes for a less glib response than posting a screen grab of 15% of the boardstate and walking away.

Maybe? The obvious follow up question to don't put redline there should be how did he get there in the first place (again why I prefer the turn before image). But you gotta start with accepting that redline shouldn't be there. 

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Mostly I just think it is beyond useless showing clunky medium/large ships sitting in a bunch of bullseyes, because against a half-awake Nantex player who has their mind set on getting to that point, of course they are.

 

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

That ideal trade in the second paragraph is my only real concern with Nantexes. Trading Redline for two Nantexes should be a slam dunk, but there are still four of the things left, enough to win most endgames (even vs. Vader/Whisper which I believe was the case here).

There are 5. The screenshot is after the imps shoot.

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

A well executed flank with ideal damage being dealt leading to situations that are still lopsided feels really problematic.

I agree. But id also say a well executed flank this was not. 

15 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

The Nantex list just always feels like it has a spare ship, which means even well executed strategies with favourable dice are only somewhat effective. That’s my problem with Nantex. Winning against them feels like praying that they make a mistake and they roll bad just so that I can get to even odds, where that same combination is a decisive win in most other reasonable matchups.

 They probably are a little too efficient. But I'd encourage you to go back and watch that top4 game if you're worried. The imp player definitely made a mistake in redlines position that cost him the game. I think its a much closer match with a good redline engage

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21 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

How I view it is Advanced Sensors Redline is an ace, regular Redline is not. He's more akin to Wedge without Advanced Sensors than he is to any traditional ace.

Sameteam on advS. 

Regular redline is very wedge-esque but the configless boost and action efficiency push him more towards ace to me

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49 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

y5nmuV9.png

Thank you for the picture.  This is now something to go on.  This is pretty much just a joust because Redline has committed to a lane for at least 1 round and can't get out of it.  Jousting isn't just lining up across each other, diagonal jousting is more common where players line up in opposite corners just to turn in to each other in the middle. 

This is pretty much core ace "gameplay" where they start in a corner and use their giant brains to move and last and reposition to "jockey for position" by waiting for their opponent to commit first.  The difference here is that Redline is going to get mega punished by all those bullseyes he opted into a turn ago.  No knock on the player, I've done this more times than I can count.  Normally aces get bailed out because they just normally out joust everything, but this isn't the case.

If you run this type of deployment but have Redline go down the less congested lane to give him outs you'll have more success.  Also, the other aces need to be a lot more aggressive to properly punish the Nantexans for box jousting.  

Also also, aces are scared of Nantexans because Nantexans will force trades and ace players aren't used to trading ships.  Endgames are similarly harder because 1 ace vs 3 Nantexans is not the slam dunk that 1 ace vs 3 normal ships usually is.  It's winnable, possibly even favored if you can get to a 2v4 or 1v2, but you have to actually play the game which is rare for trip aces.

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8 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Thank you for the picture.  This is now something to go on.  This is pretty much just a joust because Redline has committed to a lane for at least 1 round and can't get out of it.  Jousting isn't just lining up across each other, diagonal jousting is more common where players line up in opposite corners just to turn in to each other in the middle. 

This is pretty much core ace "gameplay" where they start in a corner and use their giant brains to move and last and reposition to "jockey for position" by waiting for their opponent to commit first.  The difference here is that Redline is going to get mega punished by all those bullseyes he opted into a turn ago.  No knock on the player, I've done this more times than I can count.  Normally aces get bailed out because they just normally out joust everything, but this isn't the case.

If you run this type of deployment but have Redline go down the less congested lane to give him outs you'll have more success.  Also, the other aces need to be a lot more aggressive to properly punish the Nantexans for box jousting.  

Also also, aces are scared of Nantexans because Nantexans will force trades and ace players aren't used to trading ships.  Endgames are similarly harder because 1 ace vs 3 Nantexans is not the slam dunk that 1 ace vs 3 normal ships usually is.  It's winnable, possibly even favored if you can get to a 2v4 or 1v2, but you have to actually play the game which is rare for trip aces.

Yeah, to be fair - the only non-boosting ship is really, REALLY far out of position to even threaten to do damage before they just engage redline, who cannot pretend to threaten to go in 2 directions. Redline is ultra committed at this junction. 

So is the tap, which I assume it grand inquisitor, because everyone likes big orange.

So... even 3-wide, the ace player is really, REALLY out of position, while playing directly into the nantex's base strategy.

I'm really sorry to the player - it happens. You can watch both my Atlanta Round 6 "win-and-in" game and my next-day cut game from ?2018? - I make literally the same mistake in both games, functionally back-to-back, frankly because im just exhausted (Rex, Whisper, and palp shuttle).

It happens.

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7 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Most of the previous metas weren't happening in parallel with the level of oog mental and emotional stress/strain inducing situations that are happening in parallel with this one. Some bleed over should be expected to be fair.

This is  a huge contributor, anecdotally, i've notice x wing related chatter start to pick up in the assorted x wing related chats i'm in. I'm contributing more because i'm trying so desperately not to think about how awful the world is, my breaking point was the bucks going down 3-0, but I suspect I am not the only one whose desperately trying not to think about reality, and in turn came to x wing. Luckily for me, my in person is entirely casual, and i didn't throw a new graphics card into my pc so i could play online x wing. I suspect other people don't have the same option. Any meta boogeyman would likely get some hate here. I think too, one game factor that compounds it is, last meta, boba aside, felt pretty wholesome, and nantexs dunk on many of the lists that straddled good and wholesome from last meta. My "go to" lists were Leia3x, kyl0+proudstuff, and mixed resistance. All of those would get absolutely annihalted by 6 nantex, and i don't love the matchup vs just 5 crack i4 nantex. If my response to the bucks sucking and the state of the world was to play x wing instead of siege, getting blown out by nantex would probably be pretty tilting

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Here's the thing: it wasn't a well-executed flank, but how much of that is Imperial Mistake, and how much is CIS Skill and Nantex Superiority?

Good defense in your-choice-of-sports-ball or chess or whatever really can make an opponent look like a chump.  Flying well, and having the tools to do it (like Nantex have) can go a long way towards making an approach that might have worked against a different player, against a different list, into a bad approach.

All comes back, IMHO, to the bugs being way too cheap.  I4 shouldn't be getting 6 ships with Talents, and maybe even not getting 6 ships.  I3 can probably have 6 ships, but maybe not with Crack Shot.  That's a 3-4 point increase in costs, and really substantial.

Nantex is a very strange ship.  It's got a unique weapon loadout, and a really distinctive means of extra action economy, with some block-resistance as a cherry on top.  FFG done goofed at release with Ensnare, and kinda goofed again, since these are things that are *really* easy to evaluate poorly.  The 8 point cut they got was probably twice what it should have been.  It makes sense that the Nantex, in all it's weirdness, is the ship FFG probably most massively screwed up with in balance.  I've got sympathy for that.  But that just means that I'm hoping they can be fairly responsive to issues with the design.

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1 minute ago, gamblertuba said:

We are spending an awful lot of time examining the vein structure on a particular leaf on this particular tree.  Meanwhile the forest still looks exactly the same.

I unironically have no idea what that means, but I really haven't been checking this except every few weeks.

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8 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

So, I have only come here every few weeks.

First, everyone seems WAAAAY more upset than usual, than other metas, even 1.0, and it's been two tournaments.

Secondly, people are asking for others to "prove" things aren't the worst than it's ever been... I'm not sure how that's possible? What sort of proof would that be? How would someone prove that?

I'm not upset about the game, I'm sad about dismissive condescension.  We don't have to do that to each other.  

I'm not sure if it's being inferred that I asked @Chumbalaya to prove things are worse now.  I was only asking for current, on the table solutions that people are using.

7 hours ago, Brunas said:

I'm a bit confused, but I only looked at the past page or two - being condescending and arrogant is pretty on brand and what I'd expect though.  Maybe the other stuff is more egregious?  I'm also not invested in all in any of this, so maybe I'm just missing it as an observer.

...it sounds like what I'm looking for though

It's nothing new, just...people don't do that stuff as much if they've met in person.  I can disagree about X-Wing, I'd just like us all to be nicer to each other and I find it really disappointing when we're not, myself included.

5 hours ago, Brunas said:

Oh, by on brand I mean that's what I'd expect to see on the forums/in here/etc, not brand as in any particular group or affiliation.

That's accurate.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

I think Dion has the game up on YouTube if you care to watch it. 

From my perspective. The imp player put redline in a **bad** spot. Telegraphed his engage a turn or two in advance which let the nantex put 6 arcs on him. With 3-4 being bullseyes. The imps init kill one nantex and redline just dies. 

The problem is we have maybe 4 games of tape on nantex and 3/4 are people lining up to joust them, or making an error that forced them to joust them. So any internet screaming match about what to do about/against them is, for me, based on not seeing people not joust.

Thanks!  This is the kind of stuff we can talk about.  

I think the emboldened part is important because stream games are being propped up as examples and the basis upon which people are crying "NERF" (and probably is the only experience some people have), when there really are plenty of us who are playing the game, testing, and trying to figure it out.  I don't know how far to scroll up (don't!) when I talked about it originally well before Corellia.  I've been at it a while.  

38 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

**So, I want to caveat this with something I suspect people will either not read, ignore, or dismiss, but this has nothing to do with nantexes, but rather aces players. A second caveat will be that I do believe spamtexes are undercosted, but the size and severity of the reaction to them has been... interesting.

I have seen a narrative from ace players over the years that when they lose games, they go back and throw up their hands and say there was nothing they could do, and almost doubly so against swarms (literally, insert vulture swarms, and even TIE swarms). 

Here, the narrative is a bit of "they came in from three angles [good!], and the swarm found one and killed it! What else could they have done?!" Answer: not much, but basically, that's the game, and it's not just nantexes. Droids would have done this, as well as a TIE swarm. So far, nantexes, here, aren't yet special.

Coming in from 3 angles just means the swarm has to "pick one" - but given they brought 6+ ships, they should be able to find that one. If you could bring 3 ships, and always hide all three from 6+ other ships, then something is wrong with the game. The nantexes went after the medium base, which ensured higher likelihoods of bullseyes (3 die shots + their toys). That's just smart. They have 3 agility, reducing the likelihood they get alpha -ed, and make a good trade on the exchange (literally swarm tactics 101).

So, going back... This is pretty classic ace vs swarm, and just because someone did the correct "split up" maneuver doesn't mean they deserve to win, it just shifts the odds away from 99/01. Shifts it to what new distribution of odds? I have no idea. But the point being that being mad they still lost, or extrapolating that because the aces lost, the swarm is inherently too good because it beat an ace list that didn't just straight-joust has some really deep assumptions in there.

I read all of it!  To be fair (to me), I'm actually WAY more bummed about my low init ships which is a MUCH worse game against nantex than the aces.  It's gross.

30 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

My post was more of a rebuke to Chumbalaya saying that folks were just jousting 6 Nantex, which I have yet to truly see. I'm certain it happens, but it's not the primary reason 6 Nantex wins. He used that specific example from that match to prove his point of people jousting it. I was merely refuting that it was a joust. Mistakes were made by Redline before that point, but it's wasn't jousting.

The one list I did see set up to joust was Sloane Aggressors. To which, the Nantex rightly declined the joust and decided to be 6 Aces instead.

THIS.  I have zero investment in perpetuating ace play as some sort of pinnacle of X-Wing.

17 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Thank you for the picture.  This is now something to go on.  This is pretty much just a joust because Redline has committed to a lane for at least 1 round and can't get out of it.  Jousting isn't just lining up across each other, diagonal jousting is more common where players line up in opposite corners just to turn in to each other in the middle. 

This is pretty much core ace "gameplay" where they start in a corner and use their giant brains to move and last and reposition to "jockey for position" by waiting for their opponent to commit first.  The difference here is that Redline is going to get mega punished by all those bullseyes he opted into a turn ago.  No knock on the player, I've done this more times than I can count.  Normally aces get bailed out because they just normally out joust everything, but this isn't the case.

If you run this type of deployment but have Redline go down the less congested lane to give him outs you'll have more success.  Also, the other aces need to be a lot more aggressive to properly punish the Nantexans for box jousting.  

Also also, aces are scared of Nantexans because Nantexans will force trades and ace players aren't used to trading ships.  Endgames are similarly harder because 1 ace vs 3 Nantexans is not the slam dunk that 1 ace vs 3 normal ships usually is.  It's winnable, possibly even favored if you can get to a 2v4 or 1v2, but you have to actually play the game which is rare for trip aces.

See, this is useful.  It's not new to most of us, most of us are probably "yeah, duh, make sense", but it's at least a contribution.

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17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Here's the thing: it wasn't a well-executed flank, but how much of that is Imperial Mistake, and how much is CIS Skill and Nantex Superiority?

Good defense in your-choice-of-sports-ball or chess or whatever really can make an opponent look like a chump.  Flying well, and having the tools to do it (like Nantex have) can go a long way towards making an approach that might have worked against a different player, against a different list, into a bad approach.

Hard to say. I've definitely flown lists where the opponent threw a winnable game because they didn't know how to approach it. I'd like to caution patience and see if people learn how to deal with it. But I'm also well aware of the fact that people still don't know how to approach swarms.

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

All comes back, IMHO, to the bugs being way too cheap.  I4 shouldn't be getting 6 ships with Talents, and maybe even not getting 6 ships.  I3 can probably have 6 ships, but maybe not with Crack Shot.  That's a 3-4 point increase in costs, and really substantial.

*Cough* no crack in the fort *cough*

17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Nantex is a very strange ship.  It's got a unique weapon loadout, and a really distinctive means of extra action economy, with some block-resistance as a cherry on top.  FFG done goofed at release with Ensnare, and kinda goofed again, since these are things that are *really* easy to evaluate poorly.  The 8 point cut they got was probably twice what it should have been.  It makes sense that the Nantex, in all it's weirdness, is the ship FFG probably most massively screwed up with in balance.  I've got sympathy for that.  But that just means that I'm hoping they can be fairly responsive to issues with the design.

Can we take a moment to appreciate that they at least aren't tractoring the opponents ships? No matter what you feel about these nantex they gotta be better than ensnare.

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8 minutes ago, jagsba said:

*Cough* no crack in the fort *cough*

I'm not sure if Crack is just a "win more" upgrade.  My test games, it certainly didn't feel like it carried the day, just led to more 200-sub 100 scores.  The weight of all those red dice.  /shudder 

I guess the bug bidding war will tell us.

Edited by gennataos

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26 minutes ago, gennataos said:

hanks!  This is the kind of stuff we can talk about.  

I think the emboldened part is important because stream games are being propped up as examples and the basis upon which people are crying "NERF" (and probably is the only experience some people have), when there really are plenty of us who are playing the game, testing, and trying to figure it out.  I don't know how far to scroll up (don't!) when I talked about it originally well before Corellia.  I've been at it a while.  

Yeah I think I missed this part of the conversation. I think it's been a lot of yelling about cut rates and head sims in between. 🙁

26 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I read all of it!  To be fair (to me), I'm actually WAY more bummed about my low init ships which is a MUCH worse game against nantex than the aces.  It's gross.

How does it feel in comparison to something like the 4 Jedi broadside list?

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2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Yeah I think I missed this part of the conversation. I think it's been a lot of yelling about cut rates and head sims in between.

Well, that's totally valid because it's not like I've been putting up screen caps of game states or "first 3 rounds of engagement" bat reps as reference.  I've just been saying, "trust me".

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

How does it feel in comparison to something like the 4 Jedi broadside list?

My low init stuff against the republic stuff?  If that's what you're talking about, miles better.  I can block them and make it count.  Their force can bail them out sometimes, but the blocking is as much, often more, about removing their shot from a hurt ship and positional advantage than it is about action denial.

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9 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Yeah I think I missed this part of the conversation. I think it's been a lot of yelling about cut rates and head sims in between. 🙁

You don't get to incite for several pages and then pull a "sorry i missed that 🙁"

You were distracted by the anger you caused. 

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