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2 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

I don’t believe Turr is or has ever been good, but I think the design is a little bit of a problem. It is really good if he moves last and shoots first, which feeds into orange escalation. There are plenty of reasons already to bring big orange.


My earlier view that Nantex are a more Rock Paper Scissors than other ships also applies to Turr, and advanced sensors Guri, and other things with potential of high mobility and a mod. The harder these i3, i4 and sometimes i5 ships beat up on i1 and i2, the more it pushes people to big orange and correlating big purple in response.

I know the escalation from the 6 Angry Geese Nantex are driving me back to big orange numbers. I just went 6-0 at Corellia with I4 and below, AND IT WAS FUN! But the boogeyman is driving me to big orange and some purple. I don't want this, but it's what I can head sim that will beat the Nantex and still remain competitive with the rest of the field.

 

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20 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I know the escalation from the 6 Angry Geese Nantex are driving me back to big orange numbers. I just went 6-0 at Corellia with I4 and below, AND IT WAS FUN! But the boogeyman is driving me to big orange and some purple. I don't want this, but it's what I can head sim that will beat the Nantex and still remain competitive with the rest of the field.

 

get some bombs with that orange and purple for the holy trinity

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I know the escalation from the 6 Angry Geese Nantex are driving me back to big orange numbers. I just went 6-0 at Corellia with I4 and below, AND IT WAS FUN! But the boogeyman is driving me to big orange and some purple. I don't want this, but it's what I can head sim that will beat the Nantex and still remain competitive with the rest of the field.

 

That competitive with the rest of the field is what keeps sticking with me. I’m fully on board with lists beating the Nantex, but the stuff that does should be a little weak to real efficiency. 
 

I’m guessing the Nantex are probably too efficient so anything that can beat them can also beat other efficiency and is too strong? 
 

Bring those generic Nantex back up about 3 points (still net -5 or so?) and the i4 gets no toys, efficiency can start nosing into i3, and it should make it a game again. Anything that can beat Nantex as they are now gets a corresponding bump up, and we are in the land of milk and honey forever, right? That’s how it works. 

Edited by AEIllingworth

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35 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I know the escalation from the 6 Angry Geese Nantex are driving me back to big orange numbers. I just went 6-0 at Corellia with I4 and below, AND IT WAS FUN! But the boogeyman is driving me to big orange and some purple. I don't want this, but it's what I can head sim that will beat the Nantex and still remain competitive with the rest of the field.

 

WELL now I have to paint a nantex as a Goose. 

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4 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

Bring those generic Nantex back up about 3 points (still net -5 or so?) and the i4 gets no toys, efficiency can start nosing into i3, and it should make it a game again.

3 would be fine for the PWA. I'd suggest upping the SHG to at least 31, too, as 6 at I3 with Crack Shot still hurts a lot of lists, but would be more managable. I'd rather it be 32 for them, but I won't press hard.

Best solution: errata "fully" onto pinpoint tractor array. It solves many of the problems that the Nantex keeps bringing up. Otherwise, the Nantex will forever be in the realm of too expensive or too exploitable. They were errata shy before, but with Goji getting errata'd despite the rule change on max dice, I'd say they can errata a ship that is actually causing problems.

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5 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I really hope FFG learns the actual lesson here:  "Don't drop anything by 8 points in one go anymore."  

 

unless it's a ship i like ;)
i'll have to play against the nantex list to make a say, but i really cant envision it being that upsetting to play against. 

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3 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

unless it's a ship i like ;)
i'll have to play against the nantex list to make a say, but i really cant envision it being that upsetting to play against. 

I've heard you have some people up there who, if it is upsetting, can show you.

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8 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I really hope FFG learns the actual lesson here:  "Don't drop anything by 8 points in one go anymore."  

 

I hope that's not the lesson they learn from this.

I vastly prefer larger changes over small ones. We are all boiling frogs with 1pt changes, it's ridiculous. Miranda went down 8 over all points adjustments without being played at all. If she stayed over this time (and played just as often!) and dropped now 8 points, it would be perfectly fine AND hopefully players would be more willing to explore her.

The generic Ewing went down -12! Chewie and Kanan -14 and so on. All examples of boiling frog, just from rebels

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32 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Dash went down 8 points, and where is he?

Dash "only" went down 6 points. And also 6 points on on 91 is way less in comparison to an 8 point drop on a 38 point ship... 7% to 21% is a massive difference. 

 

•Dash Rendar     100 98 98 91 85 -6 -7%

 

Petranaki Arena Ace Y Y   38 38 30 -8 -21%

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Percentages

Agreed, just implying this as an oversight in the earlier post.

Regardless it's weird to me that the bugfighter is substantially cheaper than the comparable TIE Interceptors. Granted it has somewhat less maneuverability but it also has some insane time on target.

Also I still feel it's odd the Interceptor doesn't have the I1 talent slot/I4 double-talents. Not that Soontir needs them but it could help make Alphas and Sabers more useful.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Perhaps we should be talking about percentage drops then? No ship should drop 20% of its value in a single points change? Dropping Dash by 20% in the last change would put him at 68 points which seems... imprudent or at least a rash move. 

Ewings dropped 20% between unplayed and now.

e: and inbefore single: why does that matter? A year of adjustments didn't lead to them being played

Edited by GreenDragoon

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ewings dropped 20% between unplayed and now.

19.67% and 19.04%. Still less than 20% if we want to be snooty. Perhaps add the caveat "as a general rule" to allow for exceptions, then? Limiting to their original 12ish% drop is probably the wiser call. That way if something really is 20% overcosted, it can be dialed in within the timeframe of a year, and if something isn't actually 20% overcosted, we avoid that mistake.

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4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ewings dropped 20% between unplayed and now.

Over the course of like 4 price adjustments.

Given the context of 2e just starting out, and E-Wings offering potential for 3 big torpedo attacks really easily, I don't fault FFG for being cautions.  Knaves dropped to 54 (66 minus Proton Torpedo) points in the first big patch, then to like 52, 50, 49, from their start of 61.  Largest drop of 7 points was about 11.5%.

Hrm... Was FFG's caution actually that much of a good thing?  People are still very hesitant about E-Wings, and opinions have changed less than the points.  Maybe a giant price shift like the Nantex is actually best...  Hrm...

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29 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Regardless it's weird to me that the bugfighter is substantially cheaper than the comparable TIE Interceptors. Granted it has somewhat less maneuverability but it also has some insane time on target.

Let's talk about how it's cheaper and higher init than the generic RZ-2s with better time on target!  

#justice4rz-2s

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10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Hrm... Was FFG's caution actually that much of a good thing?  People are still very hesitant about E-Wings, and opinions have changed less than the points.  Maybe a giant price shift like the Nantex is actually best...  Hrm...

It's a balance you have to strike well.

Back when I was running my performance-driven model it actually used percentage of price based on a function of numbers taken and the performance they got. System wasn't foolproof but enough iterations could have done it. Once I release my ancients battlefield game this is likely the approach I will use, though I have some tools in mind to get better data sample sizes.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, gennataos said:

better time on target

Remains to be seen...

Certainly better than the RZ-1 or TIE Interceptor, but combining the maneuverability of the RZ-2 with its mobile arc...

also brings to mind:

Stalgasin Hive Guard – 29 Points

Phoenix Squadron Pilot – 29 Points

Petranaki Arena Ace – 30 Points

Green Squadron Pilot – 32 Points

In what world is a mobile arc, an extra initiative, and an extra 3-bullseye worth a two point reduction? Even if you allow for the downsides of self-tractoring and the lack of curved boosts or multi-reposition it's just a major WTF.

What the nonsense were you thinking FFG?

#JusticeforRZ1s

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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