Jump to content
SaltMaster 5000

Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I would put forth that L'ulo's ability has a downside that can be undesirable depending on the board state and, when using it is not appropriate, not invoking this downside means not using the ship ability.  Also, unless you're slooping, which RZ2's generally don't, L'ulo needs an action to use his pilot ability, whereas Zizi can still benefit from hers even without an action.

Zizi's ability is definitely easier to trigger and use effectively. Can't argue that. But it also needs certain things to happen to make use of her ability. The whole need to be shooting and/or getting shot at by multiple ships. Zizi is still capped at 2 reds, whereas Lulo can actually push damage onto 3 agility ships much easier.

Really I'm asking if people are sleeping on L'ulo because he was such a 'nightmare' during wave 2. Honestly the way Zizi is getting compared now is how L'ulo was compared then.

Edited by Smikies02

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Not a huge fan of lock rules since they overly favor high init, but ignoring that.....there is actually a huge amount of strategy involved and enabled by Target Locks. 

I wish more low init ships had access to the lock action.

Its really kinda neat.

Edited by Boom Owl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

One of the worst things about how force is implemented is that it oversimplifies a good portion of the strategy that normally surrounds Target Locks. That combined with the way high initiative is favored makes stuff like Passive Sensors start to seem fine or necessary even. Thats unfortunate. 

Edited by Boom Owl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

But...people are on the verge of getting mad at RZ-2s!  Again. 

I used to be angry at Rz-2's purely based on anecdotal evidence. No matter how many hits i'd generate, my opponents would have that many evades. They are why I took 2 copies of Juke and a double mod Maarek (RIP Composure abuse) to Adepticon. It just seemed that even in optimal engagements with them, no initial trade would ever be fair.

Then, when rooting for one of my locals who went 6-0 in a Hyperspace Trial Swiss with the 5 A's completely get rekt by his greens first round of cut, I ceased to be angry at the chassis (OK, maybe I was angry at them betraying my friend). Also, for having a 360* turret almost a la Luke Gunner, they only mostly can generate only 2 hits at R2+ and are prone to being blocked by things fine with taking 3 dice focus by the ones not blocked, getting tractored into obstacles by Thannison/Seventh Sister/Ensnare. That and clouds drastically nerfed their dps. As both the game gained new content (especially in Hyperspace) and I learned how to play more into board states and less into list combo/interactions, I became indifferent towards their existence. I'm currently going through a similar process with the M3-A's. People rolling slightly above average with them I'm fine with. It's the M3-A's that are Outmaneuvered and blocked but natty the 2 evades because my 3 dice lock focus generate 2 hits (after getting Mag Pulse depleted and jammed yet nattying their R3 tractor shot on my modded defense) that sort of upset me. But if I'm saying "muh dice" it means that I have to be more patient and proc a later engagement in the game a la a slow smoke push on a site in Counterstrike. You'll never not have bad variance somewhere, but you can at least mitigate it.

Since both the Firespray and the RZ-2 can decide to not care where a lower init is thanks to the option of boosting + buttshot or just going slower on forward shot approach, complaining about Boba but idolizing the RZ-2 strikes me as odd. Not that I have a thing for Boba. I'll fly him in a 3 ship Scum list for fun despite all his optimal builds being 2 ship lists, and I have yet to play in a Hyperspace event with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Since both the Firespray and the RZ-2 can decide to not care where a lower init is thanks to the option of boosting + buttshot or just going slower on forward shot approach, complaining about Boba but idolizing the RZ-2 strikes me as odd.

You're again comparing fully modified 3 dice with unmodified 2 dice

The one thing rz2 do best above all else is to cause irrational behavior :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I don't think the X-Wing community has discussed the target lock action in nearly enough depth. 

I am thinking maybe instead of trying to figure out lists or ships we try to actually understand how strategy related to the target lock action works first. 

Beyond the Rule of 11. 

An interesting case study here is the Techno Union Bomber in lists without DRK-1 Probe Droids. You have to accept a turn of getting shot at with only defensive mods, then lock and shoot ordnance the next turn. The target ship might have fled by then; how do you encourage them to stay so you can lob a Plasma Torpedo at them? Of course, Hyenas are still defensively modded when they take a lock...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

You're again comparing fully modified 3 dice with unmodified 2 dice

The one thing rz2 do best above all else is to cause irrational behavior :D 

If the A Wing is flown competently, those are 2 dice heroic optics. OK, suppose the boost is forced. With at least 2 of the pilots, that's a moot point. At most, you can fit 2 fully modified 3 dice buttshot boosts in a list. You can fit 5 "unmodified" 2 dice versions of that option in a list.

Not saying one's better than the other (although Boba Fenn is disgustingly cheap still, so actually, Boba is still better). But more points were paid for Boba. It's the same concept, but in a diet/lite format. At least A Wings don't have Slave 1. Yet.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

If the A Wing is flown competently, those are 2 dice heroic optics. OK, suppose the boost is forced. With at least 2 of the pilots, that's a moot point. At most, you can fit 2 fully modified 3 dice buttshot boosts in a list. You can fit 5 "unmodified" versions of that option in a list.

You said something else though.

2 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

the RZ-2 can decide to not care where a lower init is thanks to the option of boosting + buttshot

 a Rz2 (not many, you move the goalpoast to include more) can not simply decide to not care because this simple decision costs two actions.

Unlike Boba where it costs literally nothing. (E: at most a boost, but with Slave1 often not even that)

Big difference

Edited by GreenDragoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Target lock setup for future shots is really important but also not something frequently discussed or understood. Especially against highly defensive targets. Part of this might be the fact that high mobility and initiative kills make it feel like you have to spend your mods on the shots you know you have rather than saving them for a future better shot you might not get to take. That sometimes relegates the lock action to turns you know your not going to need to defend against alot or will have nothing in arc anyway. If you have enough ships to not worry to much about your losses that can sorta help to, however depending on the ships involved you can regularly  give up points even to one pot shot against your unmodified dice in the process. Its a risk that involves guessing at the future board state and the pace of initiative kills. Basically target lock setup implies your at least thinking or guessing about where ships will be next turn or if they will be there at all. If you don't require multi turn target lock setup as part of your strategy and reach the equivalent to full mods in a single turn without setup you can focus on this turns mods entirely and might not even realize your less dependent on guessing future turns movement and board-state to earn full modification. That leaves you free to think mainly about how do I get things in arc this turn and do I need to save this turns lock for a k turn or use this focus/calc/force for defense right now. Rather than do I need to risk some hit points now or forego a chance at damage now to do more damage later. Still some strategy involved if you can fully modify in a single round just less of it.

Interestingly its unclear to me when multi turn Lock Setup is relevant to a ship to get full mods if players default to just taking more focus tokens because its easier or because its correct.

Edited by Boom Owl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

210?cb=20190813212528

Fairly cheap and it's even hyperspace legal.

Has the best card art for an upgrade besides resistance chewie. 

Do we under appreciate TC? I think maybe we do but also 3 pts seems to be to much for players to add it to things like Sabers or Strikers or Fireballs. Wonder why thats the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The vast majority of games I played or watched had player too greedy with their mods. Saving the lock for the kturn, or even just keeping another force, does not happen nearly as often as it probably should.

Locks specifically make that IMO worse because you reroll. Not a die change like so many others, but you surrender yourself again  to the roll of the die. The maths behind don't matter if you reroll bbbb into bbbb, it just feels bad.

So I argue that locks are special, not only because they stay but because they are uncertain. If focus tokens gave a reroll and locks allowed you to change to hits then you'd see way more lock setups.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The vast majority of games I played or watched had player too greedy with their mods. Saving the lock for the kturn, or even just keeping another force, does not happen nearly as often as it probably should.

Locks specifically make that IMO worse because you reroll. Not a die change like so many others, but you surrender yourself again  to the roll of the die. The maths behind don't matter if you reroll bbbb into bbbb, it just feels bad.

So I argue that locks are special, not only because they stay but because they are uncertain. If focus tokens gave a reroll and locks allowed you to change to hits then you'd see way more lock setups.

Right, so are xwing players underutilizing the current state lock action though? 

Or are we all just making the most correct choice and running things that require less thought, decisions, risk, and setup to get to the same place? 

Edited by Boom Owl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Right, so are xwing players underutilizing the current state lock action though? 

Depends.

Yes, if they don't need a defensive token (for whatever reason, including a reasonable gamble to confuse target priority). Then more should set up locks.

No, if the defensive token is a reasonable choice - which is very often the case because good defense and preserving points wins more

I don't think setting up shots is inherently bad, quite the opposite actually. A turn where three ships shoot double modified and one with 3 unmodified shots can be better than two turns with one mod each - even if that is not true when going strictly by total expected damage.

That depends on the target, but a reason I say this is also less tangible. Removing an entire ship in a strong turn does not offer the chance to bug out, for one. I also believe in the will to win, despite the memes. Breaking that with a horrible turn is better than constant damage over time.


which reminds me, DoT vs Burst/Alpha is another topic worthy of a lot of discussion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Depends.

Yes, if they don't need a defensive token (for whatever reason, including a reasonable gamble to confuse target priority). Then more should set up locks.

No, if the defensive token is a reasonable choice - which is very often the case because good defense and preserving points wins more

So its all the space in between these two things that interests me.

Is it possible that most players default to a focus token more frequently than they should? And does that lead to a more negative perception of “single” mod ships that might be better than our capability to use them? 

For context consider the reasons why we don't use a 34 pt i1 Interceptor with Targeting Computer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You're again comparing fully modified 3 dice with unmodified 2 dice

The one thing rz2 do best above all else is to cause irrational behavior :D 

Well, for one Boba you get about 3 A-wings, so the lower attack level corresponds to a lower points level.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So its all the space in between these two things that interests me.

1) Is it possible that most players default to a focus token more frequently than they should? 2) And does that lead to a more negative perception of “single” mod ships that might be better than our capability to use them? 

For context consider the reasons why we don't use a 34 pt i1 Interceptor with Targeting Computer. 

1) Yes, including being right for the wrong reasons :P?

It's also a safe standard choice. If it's wrong then often not by too much.

2) Also yes? I'm not home, so I can't check how many have focud+lock natively on the bar.

The i1 interceptor is such an interesting case: you don't know yet! It requires such a good prediction to risk the entire ship for a better shot in a turn. What if you miscalculated, the opponent lands right in front of it with double mods and ini-kills it? Horrible choice as player, with a catastrophic outcome.

If you had sense or some other way of knowing, like i6, then you can "risk" it.

The interceptor is special because it has 3 hull. Take a Bwing instead at i2. Is it still stupid to risk some shields for a great shot next turn? I don't think so

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...