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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Players arent actually mad at Sycks are they?

Not mad, no. Scyks have this frustrating effect that's also seen in droids: takes forever to kill one, for barely any points. Scyks have the side effect that they have a devastating effect on your list.

I'd argue that a more wholesome Xwing would cost them higher. In current Xwing they are fine though.

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6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If they closed the gap between generics a bit (maybe 26/28 or 27/28 instead of 25/29) I feel like they could drop Ion and HLC by two and Tractor by one. I'm really not scared of 30pt Ion Scyks. It's just a worse TIE Striker. 30pt HLCyks would be crazy fun but still not good.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Raising the cost of scyks to lower the cost of cannons?  

Also, have you played against this list?  I've played it a couple times and can easily see how someone who spends time with it to learn it can make it an exercise in frustration to play against.

Zealous Recruit (41)

Zealous Recruit (41)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Tractor Beam (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Tractor Beam (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Ion Cannon (6)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Ion Cannon (6)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Raising the cost of scyks to lower the cost of cannons?

Yes, well, of the Cartel Spacer specifically. The TPV is still too high IMO. If Scyk + Cannon got one point cheaper I don't think it would be that bad (I might be wrong). I could see the Cartel Spacer go up 2 and probably be okay, and the TPV could still go down 1. Either way, Ion and HLC can go down 2, and Tractor can go down 1 (or 2 if they change the tractor rules but that's far beside the point).

Autoblasters will probably still be fine. But I thought they were fine at 2 as well.

Edited by ClassicalMoser
My punctuation has just gotten so much worse lately

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Zealous Recruit (41)

Zealous Recruit (41)

Cartel Spacer (26)
Tractor Beam (2)

Cartel Spacer (26)
Tractor Beam (2)

Cartel Spacer (26)
Ion Cannon (4)

Cartel Spacer (26)
Ion Cannon (4)
Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Lists like this would be largely unchanged; you could sub a Tractor for an Ion or both for HLCs or Autoblasters. Not sure either really helps the list though. I don't see any significant issues here. If it's not abusive today, I don't think it would be tomorrow.

Again, not an expert, I just want to play with my cannons. 😕

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Yes, well, of the Cartel Spacer specifically. The TPV is still too high IMO. If Scyk + Cannon got one point cheaper I don't think it would be that bad (I might be wrong). I could see the Cartel Spacer go up 2 and probably be okay, and the TPV could still go down 1. Either way, Ion and HLC can go down 2, and Tractor can go down 1 (or 2 if they change the tractor rules but that's far beside the point).

Autoblasters will probably still be fine. But I thought they were fine at 2 as well.

This way you firmly lock them into the cannon carrier role. No way that a naked Scyk with that dial is worth 27pts, just one point less than a TIE Adv Baron! (Which has 2 more Ini, has 2 Shields, has boost, has all turns, has 1 turn blue, has 2 linked actions) Or 2 points more than the Epsilon FO (which has all turns, 2 blue turns, 2 sloops, and Tech slot).

With that pricing you would need a Light Scyk title, a price discount for not having the hardpoint.

Btw, the named B-wings are also culprits for cannon pricing.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

This way you firmly lock them into the cannon carrier role. No way that a naked Scyk with that dial is worth 27pts, just one point less than a TIE Adv Baron! (Which has 2 more Ini, has 2 Shields, has boost, has all turns, has 1 turn blue, has 2 linked actions) Or 2 points more than the Epsilon FO (which has all turns, 2 blue turns, 2 sloops, and Tech slot).

Except that it doesn't. It doesn't lock them into the cannon carrier role, but it locks them into the weapons hardpoint role, which they always should have been anyway. Ships tend to pay for their ship abilities. How much would you pay to be able to take APTs on your TIE/fo? Or a tractor beam? That's about how much more the Scyk should cost.

The primary suggestion was 26 points, as you can see from my list example. I think cannons could still go down two with the Scyk going up one.

Crucially, the TIE/v1 can't carry torps or cannons, which the Scyk can. It's not something of inherent value to the chassis, but the same could be said of the B-Wings' S-Foils and they're priced at 2 points. With the exception of Ten Numb, you only get value from it if you make further investment. The hardpoint gives you a flexibility that other 2-primary ships would positively drool over. Also worth noting that the TIE/v1 Baron seems above the competitive average. If you made the same comparison to the RZ-1 Phoenix, which also has a talent slot and no hardpoint, it's the A-Wing that gets the short end of the stick.

That said, I do think that a Scyk would be playable naked at 26 points, given the right situation. Even at 25 points it struggles to distinguish itself from the Z-95, which has the Illicit slot. If you need cheap filler, you're likely to go with a MG Tie or a Z95. If you're taking a Scyk it's almost certainly for the hardpoint.

19 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

With that pricing you would need a Light Scyk title, a price discount for not having the hardpoint.

Maybe, maybe not. You would still struggle to see them used as the MG TIE and Z-95 are cheaper. One could argue that a non-hardpoint Scyk at 24 would make the Z-95 nearly irrelevant as you're getting an extra agility for just 2 points. Maybe it would be nice if people didn't choose ships based on the slots they have, but the fact is that people do. Perhaps naked Scyks being viable isn't really a goal worth striving for?

19 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Btw, the named B-wings are also culprits for cannon pricing.

I'm well aware of that, but again we haven't seen any of them using HLC or Ion, very few with Tractor, and absolutely none with double cannons (why do they even have two slots?). It's all Autoblasters, which are pretty much the right price. 2 and 3 both seem to work fine. If they do dominate, it's the pilots' fault or the foils' fault. Don't punish the cannons for it.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Which are better for X-Wing? Scyks or RZ-2s?

It's a question about control effects. Ion/tractor vs damage

e: there's no real reason to pit them against each other though. The similarities are 4hp, 3 agi, and a bad reputation. No reason why that last one would be somehow connected

Edited by GreenDragoon

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12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Except that it doesn't. It doesn't lock them into the cannon carrier role, but it locks them into the weapons hardpoint role, which they always should have been anyway. Ships tend to pay for their ship abilities. How much would you pay to be able to take APTs on your TIE/fo? Or a tractor beam? That's about how much more the Scyk should cost.

The primary suggestion was 26 points, as you can see from my list example. I think cannons could still go down two with the Scyk going up one.

Crucially, the TIE/v1 can't carry torps or cannons, which the Scyk can. It's not something of inherent value to the chassis, but the same could be said of the B-Wings' S-Foils and they're priced at 2 points. With the exception of Ten Numb, you only get value from it if you make further investment. The hardpoint gives you a flexibility that other 2-primary ships would positively drool over. Also worth noting that the TIE/v1 Baron seems above the competitive average. If you made the same comparison to the RZ-1 Phoenix, which also has a talent slot and no hardpoint, it's the A-Wing that gets the short end of the stick.

That said, I do think that a Scyk would be playable naked at 26 points, given the right situation. Even at 25 points it struggles to distinguish itself from the Z-95, which has the Illicit slot. If you need cheap filler, you're likely to go with a MG Tie or a Z95. If you're taking a Scyk it's almost certainly for the hardpoint.

Maybe, maybe not. You would still struggle to see them used as the MG TIE and Z-95 are cheaper. One could argue that a non-hardpoint Scyk at 24 would make the Z-95 nearly irrelevant as you're getting an extra agility for just 2 points. Maybe it would be nice if people didn't choose ships based on the slots they have, but the fact is that people do. Perhaps naked Scyks being viable isn't really a goal worth striving for?

There are people flying and loving the 8 chaotic Scyk swarm (even if FOcho would be the better choice).

Filler? Depends on the role of the filler. If it is just for some more hull or one gun more on the table you might go Z95 or MGT, or Nom. But if you need a versatile blocker? Scyk is faster and more survivable then these two, and also has 5K, which makes it possible to get out of the block alive by jumping over the scrum, live another day,  and maybe later do it one more time.

Hardpoint locked? When did you ever see a Torp or Missile Scyk? Scyks are single action, no force users, cannot double mod, unless waiting to the round after the TL round (Or jumping through massive loops and investment  (Genesis in the right position and circumstances (but ini >4 or Force just laughes at him)), slow coordinator drone, Squad Leader MGT Surveyor (29pts for focus, leaving the MGT stressed, Scyk dial and MGT being disparate makes flying together difficult) or the expensive TL sync Quadjumper (36pts sloooooow ship)). Maybe we start seeing missile Scyks now, with dropped missile prices (if we get a heavy 2 big ship meta, maybe even crazy Ion missile Scyk and Dace, both points dropped), but I find it still doubtful: Ordance, esp ln the low ini Cartel, is so much points on a green die dependent single action ship, high danger of just giving your opponent easy points.

 

12 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'm well aware of that, but again we haven't seen any of them using HLC or Ion, very few with Tractor, and absolutely none with double cannons (why do they even have two slots?). It's all Autoblasters, which are pretty much the right price. 2 and 3 both seem to work fine. If they do dominate, it's the pilots' fault or the foils' fault. Don't punish the cannons for it.

Ion might pop up, if we get the Large base meta (latest small tourney here had large bases on top). Two cannon slots might be for the underslung, is that a cannon?, do not remember from the preview. Indepently, FFG has to be careful with cannons and the T70. You have both

-BB being ridiculous 1pt on the Blue, 2x premove BR not shutting down your second action, giving you repo and mods, or double repo

- the T70 move shenanigan aces and the Nien stress removal BS

Drop cannons too far and we might have troublesome times.

 

Anyways, imho FFG dropped the ball on both B-wing and TIE Brute, at least themewise. Both should have had 0 primary, but cannon discount. Cannon play time :)

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