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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Your mileage may vary. I literally could not be paid to run 6+ ships for a whole event. Even 5 would be pushing it.

Swarms I legit enjoy:

Rex + miniswarm

Kylo + miniswarm

Ric + V19's + sinker

Swarms are fascinating when a big chunk is a closer with some fancy tricks. Also, friendly reminder that an unblockable (Adv. Sensor) except on his terms Rex can fit with Ruthless and 5 TIEs. However, it'd be more advantageous to cash in the sensors for better TIEs, given that their blocking can clear Rex a path.

I've played the archetype on occasion IRL kit tourneys and on Vassal, but even 1 TTS game of them is tedious.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

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16 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Crack Shot doesn't deserve to be 2 points. 

Scale it by copy. 1 point each for the first two copies. 2 points for every copy past the second. I've come around to the thinking that some upgrades would be better scaled by how many copies are in a list. I remember this being suggested to fix Quad Juke Phantoms, but having looked at it, I think it can do more than remedy that.

Imagine Ruthless being 0 points for the first copy. Snap Shot decently priced for the first copy, so maybe Turr or Krassis can get some use out of it, but a Snap swarm would have to pay out the butt for it. Trick Shot for Scum Han or Blackout could cost 2 points for a single instance, but 5 RZ-2 A-Wings with Trickshot would pay a premium. Veteran Turret Gunner isn't so oppressive on 1 pilot, but 5 VTG's can be a terrible experience to fly against. Scale it by number of copies then.

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1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

Scale it by copy. 1 point each for the first two copies. 2 points for every copy past the second. I've come around to the thinking that some upgrades would be better scaled by how many copies are in a list. I remember this being suggested to fix Quad Juke Phantoms, but having looked at it, I think it can do more than remedy that.

Imagine Ruthless being 0 points for the first copy. Snap Shot decently priced for the first copy, so maybe Turr or Krassis can get some use out of it, but a Snap swarm would have to pay out the butt for it. Trick Shot for Scum Han or Blackout could cost 2 points for a single instance, but 5 RZ-2 A-Wings with Trickshot would pay a premium. Veteran Turret Gunner isn't so oppressive on 1 pilot, but 5 VTG's can be a terrible experience to fly against. Scale it by number of copies then.

If you're taking a bunch of copies of Crack Shot, by definition you're taking a bunch of low initiative things that don't have force.  Scale force cost by number of force points in a list and we can talk about Crack Shot scaling.  

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Crack Shot doesn't deserve to be 2 points. 

There's no 😲 on the reactions to properly express my surprise at @Biophysical's return.

Also, wut?  Scale by copy?  One cannon scyk is cute filler, a ton of cannon scyks is kind of gross.  Are we going to scale by copies for other stuff?  

HARD DISAGREE ON REDESIGN THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.  ;)

Edited by gennataos

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If you're taking a bunch of copies of Crack Shot, by definition you're taking a bunch of low initiative things that don't have force.  Scale force cost by number of force points in a list and we can talk about Crack Shot scaling.  

Counter-point: Don't charge for the talent slot and charge talents for what they are actually worth.

We've seen success in that regard on the X-Wing and now the Torrent. Most I3 generics are disgustingly, absurdly, obscenely overpriced once you multiply that additional cost out to the number you would take in a squad (though I4 prices are mostly quite justified).

Compare 4 academy pilots (88 points) to four Black Squadron pilots with Ruthless (104 points). Is 4 copies of Ruthless and I3 worth 16 points? For the same cost you could get Fifth Brother and put Predator or Daredevil on both of your aces.

Scimitar Squadron Bombers cost 27. Gamma Squadron Aces cost thirty! If you're wanting to put Ruthless or Marksmanship on a bomber, that sets you back four points. Is it really more valuable that Cluster missiles, or a Seismic Charge with delayed fuses?

Or let's take the Tansarii point Veteran: Four points to go from I1 to I3 with a talent. Pay two points for a talent and you could have had an ion cannon or HLC. In what world is this justified?

I3 vultures don't even get a talent, yet somehow it's two points each (that's a full 10% of their base cost) to go from I1 to I3. 

Mathematically. Crack Shot is better than Predator until you get more than 3 bullseye shots in a game. At the same price I'm betting we'll still see crack taken more. The problem isn't Crack Shot. The problem is the talent slot costing 1-3 points in addition to the negligible initiative change (that most people would rarely spend one point for).

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

There's no 😲 on the reactions to properly express my surprise at @Biophysical's return.

Also, wut?  Scale by copy?  One cannon scyk is cute filler, a ton of cannon scyks is kind of gross.  Are we going to scale by copies for other stuff?  

HARD DISAGREE ON REDESIGN THOUGHT EXPERIMENT.  ;)

Yeah, this kinda scaling would get really messy really fast.

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14 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

If you're taking a bunch of copies of Crack Shot, by definition you're taking a bunch of low initiative things that don't have force.  Scale force cost by number of force points in a list and we can talk about Crack Shot scaling.  

Admittedly force is a problem, but one aspect of a game being too strong doesn't mean another isn't.

In any case, consider the Worlds finalist Daniel Taylor with Wedge, Braylen, Jake, and Lt. Blount all with crack shot. That's 4 ships that are I4 or above. The Top 8 at Worlds had 13 copies of Crack Shot, 9 of which were on I4 and up. Captain Sear was there with his renewable pseudo-Crack Shot as well, but he has since been raised in cost, because Crack Shot is good. In comparison, there were only 4 ships with force.

Crack Shot was the most taken upgrade at Worlds by 63 instances, and for good reason. (The second was grappling struts with 110 instances). It's mathematically sound and extremely cost effective to take it at 1 point. It might even still be at 2 points.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Also, wut?  Scale by copy?  One cannon scyk is cute filler, a ton of cannon scyks is kind of gross.  Are we going to scale by copies for other stuff?  

Yes. If we have to continue pricing every cannon by how a Scyk swarm can abuse it, no other ships will get value out of cannons. Price cannons cheap for the first copy, then pricier for multiple copies, and you encourage other ships to take a cannon while keeping cannon spam smothered down.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Can you walk me through th math?

Predator adds about 1.457 - 1.074 = 0.383 hits to a 3-red focused attack against 2 focused greens.

Crack Shot is probably closer to 0.789 hits added (1 hit, less the chance of 2 blank creen dice, or rolling 0 hits, or 1 hit vs 2 evades).

After two attacks it should be about the same on average, three attacks wind up better for Predator.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

You and me, of course. :P 

You know I must poke.  ;)

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

what did crack shot generics do wrong?

Early 5A Greens.

>poke<

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

what did scyks do wrong??

I do think the cannon scyks are crazy efficient, but it's basically the performance of one person who put it in the public eye.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Admittedly force is a problem, but one aspect of a game being too strong doesn't mean another isn't.

In any case, consider the Worlds finalist Daniel Taylor with Wedge, Braylen, Jake, and Lt. Blount all with crack shot. That's 4 ships that are I4 or above. The Top 8 at Worlds had 13 copies of Crack Shot, 9 of which were on I4 and up. Captain Sear was there with his renewable pseudo-Crack Shot as well, but he has since been raised in cost, because Crack Shot is good. In comparison, there were only 4 ships with force.

Crack Shot was the most taken upgrade at Worlds by 63 instances, and for good reason. (The second was grappling struts with 110 instances). It's mathematically sound and extremely cost effective to take it at 1 point. It might even still be at 2 points.

Yes. If we have to continue pricing every cannon by how a Scyk swarm can abuse it, no other ships will get value out of cannons. Price cannons cheap for the first copy, then pricier for multiple copies, and you encourage other ships to take a cannon while keeping cannon spam smothered down.

And all those Crack Shot squads lost to Force Aces that jousted opponents all weekend long.

Crack Shot is taken so often because it's the only talent not overpriced.  

It is one use and requires a bullseye, and is only taken en-masse when it can't reactively reposition on the most common ships in the game.

Edited by Biophysical

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I do think the cannon scyks are crazy efficient, but it's basically the performance of one person who put it in the public eye.

If they closed the gap between generics a bit (maybe 26/28 or 27/28 instead of 25/29) I feel like they could drop Ion and HLC by two and Tractor by one. I'm really not scared of 30pt Ion Scyks. It's just a worse TIE Striker. 30pt HLCyks would be crazy fun but still not good.

Maybe at that point B-Wing cannons start to look better (not at all a bad thing IMO) and HLC is almost okay-ish on IGs or something.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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