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27 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Fearless available to all of S&V without a price reduction = no net change in it's deployment limitations. Putting it in any ship build without that ship having easy defensive mods is a no go... (and before it is brought up, Talonbane's "defensive mods" in Old Para's list was Old T ******* with tokens and Ketsu scaring the ever loving **** out of anyone in arc)

I only support it so I can revel in the brokenness of my stuff :D

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2 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

Fearless and Fanatical might need to go up in cost, but it might help out some of the less powerhouse upgrades?

I could see bringing up the price of Fearless and Fanatical anyhow.  These two are the sort of passive mods you can't really get outside of the Force these days.

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Posted (edited)

apropos of nothing, presenting my Unified Theory of Jank™:

unknown.png

  • red (good, fun for only one): whenever you have a meta list that's miserable
  • yellow (fun, but bad): usually lists with too many generics, whose innocence is not prepared for harsh reality
  • blue (bad unfun jank): oops all triggers, combo-wing, lots of ion and tractor and bombs 
  • orange (fun, and good): the promised land, most of current hyperspace is here
  • green (fun bad jank): lists not so bad to play against because their gimmick is bad or inconsistent, bruiser lists like saw vcx or yv6bossk that mostly just joust
  • purple (good but unfun jank): the end point of any jank that becomes good, devolving into control, agency removal, combowing, etc
  • gray ([redacted]): █████ ████ ██ █ ██████ ███████
Edited by svelok

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12 hours ago, svelok said:

what does kylo do to hyperspace if boba gets nerfed/banned and nothing else changes?

I'll unironically say Triple Silencers, and say Boba isn't really that scary to Kylo as is.

I'll also say the SJE >> Holo and/or Vonreg. 

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7 hours ago, svelok said:

apropos of nothing, presenting my Unified Theory of Jank™:

unknown.png

The grey very much exists. It's where player agency lives, free from judgement and prescriptions upon what X Wing should be, unbounded by such arbitrary notions of good and bad.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

Boba isn't really that scary to Kylo as is.

So thats one of the few things we have actual data on:

PghhJRW.png

I agree that Kylo has options to improve the matchup against Boba. Its still roughly a 40/60 matchup though.

I guess you could be talking about some weird Kylo + 2 list that runs a 15+ pt bid. 

Basically Boba is the only Hyperspace matchup that makes Kylo hesitate besides the Kylo mirror where clone Kylo moves last and gets to be supreme leader chad Kylo. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)

On a related topic...is Poe actually really close to being genuinely good in hyperspace? 

Being i6 is such a huge deal in the format. Going to attribute the below #s to not enough data.

xTBR5Rt.png

Do we underestimate how good Poe might be in Hyperspace? 

Edited by Boom Owl

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6 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

The grey very much exists. It's where player agency lives, free from judgement and prescriptions upon what X Wing should be, unbounded by such arbitrary notions of good and bad.

Unironically feel this is where the generic no-upgrade swarms go (5X, Focho, etc)

 

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59 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Unironically feel this is where the generic no-upgrade swarms go (5X, Focho, etc)

those are mostly yellow or orange, not sure I've ever seen someone describe a bunch of naked generics as "jank" or its close cousin, architecture

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

On a related topic...is Poe actually really close to being genuinely good in hyperspace? 

Being i6 is such a huge deal in the format. Going to attribute the below #s to not enough data.

xTBR5Rt.png

Do we underestimate how good Poe might be in Hyperspace? 

The only matchup I didn’t feel confident about was a CIS swarm.  If BB droids made it into hyperspace, I’d feel infinitely more comfortable about that. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

The only matchup I didn’t feel confident about was a CIS swarm.  If BB droids made it into hyperspace, I’d feel infinitely more comfortable about that. 

How do you think Poe Zizi Optics XX matches up against CIS swarm currently? Is it at least a 50/50? 

Edited by Boom Owl

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13 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

How do you think Poe Zizi Optics XX matches up against CIS swarm currently? Is it at least a 50/50? 

I don’t think so, probably more like 40/60 at best, and more realistically worse than that. It’s hard to trade a rookie for enough droids to make it a fair fight. 
 

Also, I don’t think Zizi is the correct choice with that squad.  From my experience, she doesn’t “fly well” with the rest of the squad, plus she gets ignored and does little to take heat off Poe. I’d landed on Kaz for that last slot, even against a CIS swarm. 

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14 hours ago, svelok said:

apropos of nothing, presenting my Unified Theory of Jank™:

unknown.png

  • red (good, fun for only one): whenever you have a meta list that's miserable
  • yellow (fun, but bad): usually lists with too many generics, whose innocence is not prepared for harsh reality
  • blue (bad unfun jank): oops all triggers, combo-wing, lots of ion and tractor and bombs 
  • orange (fun, and good): the promised land, most of current hyperspace is here
  • green (fun bad jank): lists not so bad to play against because their gimmick is bad or inconsistent, bruiser lists like saw vcx or yv6bossk that mostly just joust
  • purple (good but unfun jank): the end point of any jank that becomes good, devolving into control, agency removal, combowing, etc
  • gray ([redacted]): █████ ████ ██ █ ██████ ███████

I would posit that if this is reffering to lists in general, you can reach  a spot further in the upper right that is tremendously good, but might not even be fun for the person playing it. Haven't seen much of that in 2.0 though, 1.0 certainly had it

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

So thats one of the few things we have actual data on:

PghhJRW.png

I agree that Kylo has options to improve the matchup against Boba. Its still roughly a 40/60 matchup though.

I guess you could be talking about some weird Kylo + 2 list that runs a 15+ pt bid. 

Basically Boba is the only Hyperspace matchup that makes Kylo hesitate besides the Kylo mirror where clone Kylo moves last and gets to be supreme leader chad Kylo. 

51 games is a decent chunk, however I feel AT.C currently isn't reliable. It's pulling data since Wave 4 (July of last year) and is missing data from this year.

I know that none of the Space Jams are in there, so this has to be data from early March at earliest?

Also looking at it, it's missing the Michigan Store Championship on March 7th, which had 28 people and over 75% of lists in the data.

Edited by Smikies02

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58 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

51 games is a decent chunk, however I feel AT.C currently isn't reliable. It's pulling data since Wave 4 (July of last year) and is missing data from this year.

I know that none of the Space Jams are in there, so this has to be data from early March at earliest?

Also looking at it, it's missing the Michigan Store Championship on March 7th, which had 28 people and over 75% of lists in the data.

Its still hyperspace only has been since the start. So no space jam or other extended anecdotes. 

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7 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Its still hyperspace only has been since the start. So no space jam or other extended anecdotes. 

Ahh, I missed it being Hyperspace only, my apologies on that.

Still the data can be put in question. Either it's pulling data from a completely different hyperspace season (last years which was basically extended-lite) and/or missing data from the hyperspace store championship level.

Context in the About:

Currently, data is used from tournaments in Listfortress with at least 20 players, where 65% or more of players have lists entered that took place after the release of Wave 4: 10 July 2019.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2020 at 5:02 PM, Boom Owl said:

We tried 0 pt ruthless before. Way back during pre-season. It was largely irrelevant but also super cool. 

Thanks Twitter.

I think Dev's hesitation here is that 7 ruthless triggers on an already dead TIE is likely a very negative experience for the opponent. 

Now, there's definitely the competitive argument of, "if they let that happen they deserve it", but still. 

Edited by Bucknife
Misspelling

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I think Dev's hesitation here is that 7 ruthless triggers on an already dead TIE is likely a very negative experience for the opponent. 

7 2-hit attacks isn't that scary to most things that are currently viable, and 2-hit attacks are generally quite easy to manufacture. I'm not sure it's worth even a whole TIE's worth of health. I could be wrong.

It's also very difficult to imagine a scenario where seven TIEs have a shot on something and also can proc Ruthless...

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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