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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

did we all collectively forget Worlds 2018? 

control 👏 shouldn't 👏 be 👏 good 👏 

Well if FFG hadn't screwed up the tractor rules...

Guess I'm griping a lot here. In any case there's a fundamental problem with a 2-primary ship that has access to Cannons, Missiles, and Torps. Those are three very different slots, some of which are taxed considerably more than others.

My problem with cannons is that they're horrible on 95% of their chassis, but at the same time a little two good on 2 (to the point of crowding out torps, which are already known to be better than missiles). This tells me the problem is the chassis, not the upgrade.

Suppose we wanted torps, missiles, and cannons to compete on an even playing field; say, they're all three equally viable on the Scyk, and they're all three equally viable on the B-Wing (give it an imaginary missile slot for the sake of this thought experiment). Would scaling the costs by primary weapon be necessary? It's hard to imagine any 3-primary ship that would pay more than 1 point for Cluster missiles. At the same time, it's hard to imagine any 2-primary that wouldn't take it at 2 points. The same goes for Ion missiles. Concussion missiles essentially only exist to give a 2-primary ship a 3rd die. Homing missiles and Prockets are at least interesting on 3-dice ships.

The same is pretty much the case when we look at cannons. Ion cannon seems great on the Scyk since it's the only way to get 3 dice to deal damage at range 3. Then take that to the Mist Hunter or Lambda and that 6 points becomes a horribly bad waste. Even the Ion Cannon Turret is cheaper and it has 360° coverage. Ion Torpedoes are the same price and they get a 4th die but are still nearly never used. Autoblaster is in a pretty good spot; though it offers very little to a 3-primary, one with sufficient maneuverability gets a little extra bonus out of it. Probably not 3 points-worth, but something. Heavy Laser Cannon can help spike damage when you get that dream shot, but it turns off most re-rolls and crits, and it's hardly worth 4 on the Scyk, let alone the B-Wing. Every medium-large cannon ship just laughs at it. Ultimately, Cannons have a really hard time being good on 80% of their chassis, simply because the opportunity for a 3rd die on a Scyk or a double-tap on a B-Wing or Aggressor keeps them priced out of usefulness.

Torps are pretty good though. They're a little outshone by the easy-mode munitions that Separatists have access to at the moment, but their prices pretty accurately reflect the power they bring to the table, which (crucially) doesn't change that much between a 2- and a 3-primary ship. They generally seem much easier to balance, especially because of their limited charges. Spike damage and control effects in general seem easier to balance between 2- and 3-primary ships. It's the actual damage effect of Ion, Autoblaster, and HLC that are really hard to balance between the Scyk and the Lambda.

And okay maybe 2 is cheap for Ions but there's no way on earth anyone's ever paying more than 3 for that dumpster-fire of a card. Even if you strictly priced those missiles for the 2-primary ships Ion should be 3, cluster should be 3-4, concussion should be 4-5 (and inquisitors still need to be pricier). Homing might be fine. Prockets and Barrage are perfect where they are. It seems telling to me that Separatists only ever use their faction-locked munitions.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

did we all collectively forget Worlds 2018? 

control 👏 shouldn't 👏 be 👏 good 👏 

was that the one won by an american or scum?

edit: I looked. IT was the one sim one! I love sim, whats wrong with worlds 2018 other than me having to spend my first round bye working for my old awful job?

Edited by catachanninja

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11 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Suppose we wanted torps, missiles, and cannons to compete on an even playing field; say, they're all three equally viable on the Scyk, and they're all three equally viable on the B-Wing (give it an imaginary missile slot for the sake of this thought experiment). Would scaling the costs by primary weapon be necessary?

Or, you need some way to make cannons better than their printed effect.  Like...S-foils for b-wings, or linked battery for the upsilon.  Or tax a "weapons hardpoint" ship with 2 pwv more than one with a 3 pwv.

or a cannon that you roll dice with based on your primary weapon value.  Or a cannon upgrade that not a secondary weapon, but that changes the effects of your primary weapon or lets you reroll a die.  Or a cannon that lets you modify a die if you have a 3 primary weapon value.   Or or or

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3 minutes ago, catachanninja said:
53 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

did we all collectively forget Worlds 2018? 

control 👏 shouldn't 👏 be 👏 good 👏 

was that the one won by an american or scum?

Scum. 

Brobots from the UK. 

That kid was an incredible player. 

Control was good enough, but you need to also BE good enough. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Like...S-foils for b-wings, or linked battery for the upsilon.

But see, these things have their own price point which is (or should be) baked into the chassis and can be adjusted by pilot. Cannons as a whole don't contribute that value; the text does.

8 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

or a cannon that you roll dice with based on your primary weapon value.  Or a cannon upgrade that not a secondary weapon, but that changes the effects of your primary weapon or lets you reroll a die.  Or a cannon that lets you modify a die if you have a 3 primary weapon value.   Or or or

I mean I'm all for these things but it doesn't help us much with the situation we're in now.

Should the Scyk be priced for the naked chassis or for the chassis with the slots? I think it should be priced for the chassis with the slots (and allowed to be good) but I think the upgrades that go in those slots shouldn't take a beating because they would be too good a bargain on just one ship.

And the pricing structure of SS-Foils is just annoying. They really need to bake it into the chassis and charge what it's worth (which is just a little less than VTG, definitely not 2 points).

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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2 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

I admit the kid's got skill but I don't think balance/design decisions should ever be based on skill floor/ceiling. 

True. 

I would add that ships who are not designed to do "damage" have to be able to progress the game state through other means. 

A naked Z95 can use blocking as a form of control, and the HP dispersion to add complexity to the opponent's target priority. 

Control takes a lot of forms. 

Auto-include guaranteed ion should definitely be avoided, but ion Y-wings should probably not be terrible, at least. 

Now, am I %100 sure ion Ys are completely trash in 2e at the moment? 

No. I actually think they might be alright. Same with Ion Cannon Sycks. 

There's just a lot of other stuff that actually does damage and therefore pushes these interesting control fillers into casual territory. 

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And the pricing structure of SS-Foils is just annoying. They really need to bake it into the chassis and charge what it's worth

The fact that Braylen exists means that this upgrade can't even be variably costed appropriately. 

Since we're voting, I vote baked B-Wing foils as well (hint*hint: free on generics.....)

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I also think it's worth reiterating that I try to form game design opinions based on fun rather than balance. Some forms of control can be fun but I think ion is particularly worrisome because of the amount of agency it removes. Tractor at least pretends to give the person tractored some agency now but it's still on the naughty list I think. Taking a stress to rotate kinda doesn't matter when you're on a rock, which makes the counter more of a listbuilding counter, which seems like the ultimate NPE to me.

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1 minute ago, Kyle Ren said:

Taking a stress to rotate kinda doesn't matter when you're on a rock, which makes the counter more of a listbuilding counter, which seems like the ultimate NPE to me.

They should have said:

1. You have to spend the tractor tokens to move the ship

2. You can take a stress to decide (whether to spend the tractor tokens or leave them)

3. If you don't your opponent chooses

4. If the ship is moved, the person who applied the tractor token moves it

 

Prevents crazy self-tractoring shenanigans from getting too absurd, but also gives plenty of counterplay to tractor beams etc.

Or they could have just done the obvious: Ignore items 2-3 but otherwise keep it.

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20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

But see, these things have their own price point which is (or should be) baked into the chassis and can be adjusted by pilot. Cannons as a whole don't contribute that value; the text does.

Sorry, I actually somehow don't understand what you're saying here.  I personally think B-Wing foils should be free and the chassis maybe a point or two more expensive (braylenn more than that).

 

21 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Should the Scyk be priced for the naked chassis or for the chassis with the slots? I think it should be priced for the chassis with the slots (and allowed to be good) but I think the upgrades that go in those slots shouldn't take a beating because they would be too good a bargain on just one ship.

There's plenty of ships with essentially a 2/3/4 statline.  The tie/fo is the most "generic" of them, and the others (a-wings, turret a-wings, CLT sprites, tie/v1s), all kinda have things that make them special.  I'd be most happy if the base scyk were prices to never see play, and cannons/missiles/torps priced such that scyks were worth considering only with one bolted on.

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1 minute ago, Ablazoned said:

Sorry, I actually somehow don't understand what you're saying here.  I personally think B-Wing foils should be free and the chassis maybe a point or two more expensive (braylenn more than that).

Yeah sorry this is what I was trying to say. To elaborate: the value in the double-tap is in the text that lets you double-tap, so price that accordingly. The value in the cannon is in parallel to your primary, not in addition to it. What you're paying for in the cannon itself is flexibility. What you're paying for in S-foils or IG-88-B is turning that flexibility into (highly-conditional) addition.

3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

There's plenty of ships with essentially a 2/3/4 statline.  The tie/fo is the most "generic" of them, and the others (a-wings, turret a-wings, CLT sprites, tie/v1s), all kinda have things that make them special.  I'd be most happy if the base scyk were prices to never see play, and cannons/missiles/torps priced such that scyks were worth considering only with one bolted on.

Also agreed. And if this were the case, the cannons and missiles could afford to be cheaper and might ever see play elsewhere.

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13 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They should have said:

1. You have to spend the tractor tokens to move the ship

2. You can take a stress to decide (whether to spend the tractor tokens or leave them)

3. If you don't your opponent chooses

4. If the ship is moved, the person who applied the tractor token moves it

 

Prevents crazy self-tractoring shenanigans from getting too absurd, but also gives plenty of counterplay to tractor beams etc.

Or they could have just done the obvious: Ignore items 2-3 but otherwise keep it.

Just let me quickly consult the tractor rules...

latest?cb=20181125050502

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All the Scyk bashing. For one list flown by an absolutely amazing pilot. The damage dealers in the lists are the Fangs. Which went down in points last update, whole 3 points.

If the Scyks go up by more than a point, they are where they were before, non existing. I tried autoblaster swarms already in October, under the old points regime. Your damage output was ridiculously low, as you had too few bodies and few meaningful attacks. Apart from the rather bad dial, single action, no boost.

 

Cannon prices did go up to the same degree for the introduction of double tap B-wings, and the introduction of pseudo front arc Jumpmasters, Nom Lumb is a total bargain blocker. You see Dengar again.

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Posted (edited)

This has been a rough week for many:

  • COVID clearly hasn't gotten any better which is legitimately sad
  • Points got delayed until they are done (which I am 100% fine with) 
  • Various dumpsterfires caught fire across the X-Wing Internet Ecosystem 
  • RZ2A was discussed for another 100+ pages straight with no foreseeable end in sight (also fine I guess because its mostly just funny at this stage)
  • TLJ the best star wars movie of all time was erased from canon 

I recommend a 100% increase in the # of GIFs per page in this thread until morale improves. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

My problem with cannons is that they're horrible on 95% of their chassis, but at the same time a little two good on 2 (to the point of crowding out torps, which are already known to be better than missiles). This tells me the problem is the chassis, not the upgrade.

Cannons aren't "crowding out" torps. Low init locks and the price of torps are...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Arguably, as a game designer they should have started here.

I think the Nantex rather exposed than caused the underlying issues with Tractor.

I’d argue it’s a combination of old tractor rules bolted onto an easily movable rotating turret arc. 
 

edit: oh we’ve already moved on. Feel free to ignore. Or burn down my hot take, Dwywm.

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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i am close to the most confused I've ever been on this website and it happened extremely quickly

cannons compete with torpedoes? people are mad at scyks? cannons make non-scyk ships more interesting? its not a good thing that ffg made tractoring things bad? x-wing should only go up to 50 points? b-wing sfoils aren't strong enough? 

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

latest?cb=20181125050502

help me, chart cartoon

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

i am close to the most confused I've ever been on this website and it happened extremely quickly

cannons compete with torpedoes? people are mad at scyks? cannons make non-scyk ships more interesting? its not a good thing that ffg made tractoring things bad? x-wing should only go up to 50 points? b-wing sfoils aren't strong enough? 

help me, chart cartoon

when nothing matters people care a lot more about fun I guess, I sure can't explain any of it any other way

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