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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

The goal is to provide players with actual, different options instead of the perfect build, right?

I think a cheap chassis has the advantage of more naked ships and should in principle allow a wider range of upgrades.

But in practice, more expensive ships with cheaper upgrades seem to lead to more variable choices?

Is that really true? I have no idea

I also have no idea. My biased opinion is that less access to upgrades leads to substantially more variety. Not sure if thats best done via expensive chassis or upgrades? Thankfully Max is smart and does that stuff for us pretty well.

Edited by Boom Owl

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32 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think a cheap chassis has the advantage of more naked ships and should in principle allow a wider range of upgrades.

But in practice, more expensive ships with cheaper upgrades seem to lead to more variable choices?

Ya know, it might be the latter.

For most ships, most upgrades don't add enough value, so folks just bring bare ships.  Missiles?  Hah, foolishness.  Just cut them and bring another ship.  That ship will pretty much only ever be whatever happens to be the most efficient ship in the faction.  Each faction has their aces, their best generic jouster, their best generic filler.  Maybe a support ship.  Everything else is just worse.

Like, any time someone gets an oddball idea in the squad lists, the best improvement in the list is almost always to cut the upgrades and run another ship.  On the one hand, more generics is good.  On the other, it kinda gets boring.

 

Thought experiment: Suppose pretty much all upgrades in X-Wing went down 5 points.  Ships go up by an appropriate amount.  The stuff that doesn't matter is now free, the stuff which is really powerful (the Mauls, the Advanced Sensors) you still have to pay for.  Choice of missile becomes pretty interesting, or what bomb you bring, or so forth.  Then again, people get stuck in ruts, and probably don't actually vary things up much.

 

Maybe it's just that people don't like building diverse lists.

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7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Ya know, it might be the latter.

I think it's worth to distinguish what's more popular from what's more diverse.

Additional ships lead to different choices of additional ships. Rebel beef was incredibly variable but also felt like just the same. So, technical variety vs perceived variety. And the second ultimately matters.

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I think it’s kind of a mixed bag. I definitely think that somethings like a turrets, Missiles, and cannons should be cheaper in general since they’re usually a “take it or leave it” deal. The exceptions (Scyk, V1, maybe Y-Wing) probably need a point up anyway.

I personally really like some reason to ever take ion or cluster missiles. Even taking concussion missiles on an Aggressor, RZ-1 or Z-95 would be sweet but just isn’t close to viable since the V1 is too good with them already.

And don’t get me started on the sadness of the nerf that came to cannons when what they needed was a buff (looking at you again, Scyk!)

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5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And don’t get me started on the sadness of the nerf that came to cannons when what they needed was a buff (looking at you again, Scyk!)

How so? One of the top meta lists has 4 scyks with 2 types of control cannons, and it feels like autoblasters are used more than almost any other cannon before, from both editions.

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10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And don’t get me started on the sadness of the nerf that came to cannons when what they needed was a buff (looking at you again, Scyk!)

 

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

How so? One of the top meta lists has 4 scyks with 2 types of control cannons, and it feels like autoblasters are used more than almost any other cannon before, from both editions.

I agree with @GreenDragoon here.  Cannon Scyks are pretty bad ***.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

But in practice, more expensive ships with cheaper upgrades seem to lead to more variable choices?

Well, inasmuch as talking design theory is valuable in our boat, I'd say that in the scope of the seven existing factions, Res and FO are in the unique position for upgrade expression and premium chassis points. 

I would be fine with another 4 point tax on RZs and SFs, especially (possibly more like 2 or 3 points on T70s and Silencers), if we could have 2 point D.PwrCells, Pattern Analyzers and Optics. 

....

1 or 0 point T.Synchronizer and FerroPaint. 

I'm a modder at heart, who loves to turn dials hard in the direction of cool and unique, so I'm always gonna be pro increasing faction identity. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I would be fine with another 4 point tax on RZs and SFs, especially (possibly more like 2 or 3 points on T70s and Silencers), if we could have 2 point D.PwrCells, Pattern Analyzers and Optics. 

Why throw T-70's and Silencers in the mix?  Silencers like Optics because Kylo and/or Fanatical.  I've never been onboard with Optics T-70s.  I don't want them taxed to make upgrades necessary to provide enough value for the cost.  

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I suspect that reducing the cost of upgrades while increasing the cost of ships that can take them won't do much to change the underlying drive for Upgrade E (efficiency upgrades that mitigate variance or reduce how much variance maters) over Upgrade C (casual upgrades that are mostly fun but don't do much to boost the efficiency of a ship/list) in the games that the metrics (metawing, Adv. Tar Comp, etc.) cover, even if taken to the level that @theBitterFig hypothesizes. Upgrade E can also be an extra arc+ clump of hp that moves "independently", not just a card assigned to a ship. 

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Thought experiment: Suppose pretty much all upgrades in X-Wing went down 5 points.  Ships go up by an appropriate amount.  The stuff that doesn't matter is now free, the stuff which is really powerful (the Mauls, the Advanced Sensors) you still have to pay for.  Choice of missile becomes pretty interesting, or what bomb you bring, or so forth.  Then again, people get stuck in ruts, and probably don't actually vary things up much.

I'm pretty sure that I would hate that timeline.

Almost universally, fewer upgrades in a list means I enjoy playing with or against that list more.

41 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I would be fine with another 4 point tax on RZs and SFs, especially (possibly more like 2 or 3 points on T70s and Silencers), if we could have 2 point D.PwrCells, Pattern Analyzers and Optics. 

Okay, now I'm 100% sure.

13 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Cannon prices seem good on Scyks, acceptable on S-Foil B-Wings, and bad on everything else.

This was basically always true, even before the prices went up basically nobody ever used cannons. 0pt Jamming was >2/3rds of all cannons taken, and the rest were HLCs and Tractors that were all mistakes to take in the first place.

I'm not really sold on the idea that cannons being popular on 3 dice ships is particularly more fun or interesting than not. Boba doesn't take tractor beam, B-Wings don't take ion cannons, oh no...? HLC, esp on medium+ bases, is maybe kind of a cool idea but I don't see that we lose, really, anything at all by the rest being bad on those platforms. They're all either already good, or taking cannons wouldn't make them particularly any more good. Conversely, Scyks get to be good, when they wouldn't otherwise, and the archetype wouldn't exist otherwise.

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8 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I mean what else needs to use a cannon and is actually in-stock? Gunboats are the main platform being punished at the moment, but it seems like a mistake to make them competitive when 1.0 stock is wiped out and there is no reprint pending.

Some people care about Extended for some silly reason.

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36 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

1 or 0 point T.Synchronizer and FerroPaint.

T Sync definitely. FerroPaint is a really good upgrade, but at too high of a cost. Great tech against Vader, Passive Sensor Whisper, and TC Soontir, but is double the cost of Passive Sensors and Targeting Computer. That's a hard sell especially when you come across lists that don't need to lock to be effective. FerroPaint to 3, and see how that works for six months, then reevaluate.

24 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Cannon prices seem good on Scyks, acceptable on S-Foil B-Wings, and bad on everything else.

 Surprisingly, JM5Ks are doing well with them. So we can put them into the "acceptable territory". I am loathe to really suggest this as the just went down 3 points on average, but maybe bump some of the Scyks up a point? Maybe just the generics then drop cannons a point?

That keeps the Scyks builds viable while other cannon users can take them.

10 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I mean what else needs to use a cannon and is actually in-stock?

I've loved me some IG's lately. They are almost viable.

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5 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm pretty sure that I would hate that timeline.

Almost universally, fewer upgrades in a list means I enjoy playing with or against that list more.

The more I think about it, it doesn't really make sense in this edition of X-Wing.  For example, in theory I think it'd be cool for every astromech ship to bring some kind of droid.  However, there are essentially only three generic droids in X-Wing: Blue Moves, Double Locks, Regen (two flavors).  If that's the selection, things look kind of blah.

I just think it'd be fun to see stuff like Daredevil become free.  In some hypothetical other edition of X-Wing, there could be a lot of free talents and upgrades that do something kind of interesting, but it's paid for with an in-game cost like stress, rather than points in list building.

Maybe it'd need to be combined with another points refactoring, every list is now 40-50 points, a TIE fighter costs 4-5 or so, an X-Wing costs 10-11, but most upgrades are 0-2 points.  The force-point crew would all be 2 points, solid but counter-able stuff like PerCo at 1, and most weaker stuff at 0.  Current X-Wing based on a 200 point scale offers a lot of granularity, a lot of potential for fine adjustments in power level, so there's not much need for different upgrades to have similar amounts of value--the points can be fairly accurately set.  Going to a system with less granularity in price means that the power level on nearly every upgrade has to be about equal (so often kind of weak and situational).

The design of ordnance in such a system seems interesting to me.  If Ion and Homing and Cluster are all intended to be 0 points, but Concussion, Proton Rockets, DBM, and Barrage Rockets are all intended for 1 point, how do they differ?  How does FFG play with charges and effects?  Would it be better for Concussion to have fewer charges and be 0 points?

I dunno.

Mostly I think it's fun to think about during lunch.

3 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

 Surprisingly, JM5Ks are doing well with them. So we can put them into the "acceptable territory".

Jumps slipped my mind, that's all.  Yeah, cannon prices are totally fair on them.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Arguably, because they buffed Scyks, they needed to nerf the cannons for everyone to keep the power-level of the Scyk in line.

*edit*

Cannon prices seem good on Scyks, acceptable on S-Foil B-Wings, and bad on everything else.

Pretty much this. Cannons are a waste and totally uninteresting, same as missiles, except on 1-2 dedicated platforms. Definitely not enough to justify the existence of an entire slot/category of upgrades.

Charging something for slots has always existed, to one degree or another, and I don’t know that it’s always a bad thing.

AB seems pretty much fine. It was probably fine at 2 as well. Tractor should be 1 on any platform. Ion is absurd garbage at 6, 4 would be more fair (Ion Missiles Should be 2). HLC was bad at 4 and terrible at 5.

They nerfed all the cannons because of Scyks and B-Foils. Scyks are probably a point too cheap and B-Foils are a rollout mess and should have been free on a more expensive chassis.

I don’t necessarily need a good reason to put HLC on Fett, but at least interesting guns on an Aggressor Or control options on an X-Wing should be viable.

Give me a reason to take cannons other than a double-tap, and price Scyks/Jumps right in the first place.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Scyks are probably a point too cheap

Nah. They're probably right where they should be. Tie/FO might be a point too cheap, with their superior dial.

Raising them in price to lower cannons also nerfs any other hardpoint option for them, as well as nerfing no-upgrade ones. Nobody's really playing 8 scyks either, if you were going to, you should just play Ocho instead, flat out better.

Edited by Cerebrawl

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1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Tractor should be 1 on any platform.

Drop Poe to 65 and...I think I'm onboard!  ;)  Board state changes every turn at my whim!

Poe Dameron (68)
Heroic (1)
R4 Astromech (2)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
BB Astromech (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Tractor Beam (3)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
BB Astromech (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Tractor Beam (3)

Blue Squadron Rookie (42)
BB Astromech (1)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Tractor Beam (3)
Total: 209

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

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