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29 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm trying to make Reapers work, but I can't seem to get anything besides Vermeil to do well. I had some fun with Vizier, but still nothing in the realm of strong.

is there at this point any particular reasons reapers cant just be made considerably cheaper? just sloane would need to go up too?

Just now, 5050Saint said:

Should the double and triple limiteds Vultures cost the same as their generic counterparts of the same initiative? Currently, they are 2 point above.

i am unsure if adding random triggers to forget into a vulture swarm is a desirable outcome? the named vultures, unlike the hyenas, just dont actually do anything different enough from a normal vulture to change how you play them

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If that'll encourage swarms to take I3 so I can more easily block them, sure!

taking i3 now is such a bad decision, but lists with the named i3s in cis (066, dooku, 32c) would be easier to wrangle and therefore more appealing if you could have i3 wingmates without a 14pt tax

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2 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

They could mess with the slots on the multi dot Vultures - maybe take away their access to missiles and then cost them the same as their unlimited equivalent?

Or perhaps, keep them at their price, and make them the only missile carriers. You can only bring Discords on Vultures if you bring slightly more expensive limiteds.

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5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok ill bite. 

Vultures are not a problem and never have been. 

I would say you're right but the confluence of struts, the vultures themselves, discord missiles, their ship ability, and the Tac droids are a problem. 

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Just now, Timathius said:

I would say you're right but the confluence of struts, the vultures themselves, discord missiles, their ship ability, and the Tac droids are a problem. 

Im with ya on struts.

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31 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok ill bite. 

Vultures are not a problem and never have been. 

Okay, but while I do believe at least some aspects of Vultures have been a problem, no one asked if they were a problem. In fact we were talking about lowering the cost of the I3's and perhaps the limiteds. What's you take on those ideas?

 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok ill bite. 

Vultures are not a problem and never have been. 

Okay, I'll bite back.  TF drone win rates are statistically way above average.  This doesn't inherently make them problematic, but at least you want to closely scrutinize them, right?

Edited by Ablazoned

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

TF drone win rates are statistically way above average.  This doesn't inherently make them problematic, but at least you want to closely scrutinize them, right?

Yea no question CIS Swarm is above average in Hyperspace. Close to or greater than 60% win rate against alot which is crazy. Either way I don't think Vultures themselves are a huge problem. Only thing I would consider addressing is Struts since that card fundamentally alters core in game counter play for 6-8 pts total in a list which I think is reasonable to question. Discord Missiles, Ordinance, Probes, Tech Relays, base Vulture costs etc. all that I think is priced pretty well and I genuinely don't want to see any increases there. 

Every faction has simple, non-tech related ship count based options for dealing with a Vulture Swarm even in Hyperspace. The struggle is doing that and maintaining at least a 50/50 matchup vs Boba at the same time. Address the Ace lists and I think the CIS Swarm's matchups start to look alot less consistent as players adjust to not having to tech against a 20+ Pt Bid Supernatural Two Ship Ace Jouster List. Kylo could become a huge problem but I think he should go up in cost to about 80 as well so there is that to I guess. I don't know what Hyperspace would look like if Boba+ was nerfed into the ground but I suspect CIS Swarm would eventually become less effective since it basically does not require specific bids/inits or tech to consistently get to a 50/50 matchup. 

For Extended I don't think CIS Swarm is much of a problem. If anything its reasonable quality given how ridiculous the relevant things are in that format. But thats a mostly pointless comment since I have absolutely zero idea what costs should look like for Extended. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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37 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Holy crap, that thread on Fly Better.  Why not just ban that dude?  Weird. 

Where is this dumpster fire so I can roast my marshmallows? Discord? Facebook?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

In fact we were talking about lowering the cost of the I3's and perhaps the limiteds.

 

Oh, I'd phrase things as raising the cost of Trade Feds to be equal to Separatist droids. :P

 

Also, as a Pentaxian, the Limiteds are sweet.  DA 70mm is a pancake less than 1 inch thick?

70mmb.jpg

But of course, I'd still welcome a price drop. ;)

 

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Okay, but while I do believe at least some aspects of Vultures have been a problem, no one asked if they were a problem. In fact we were talking about lowering the cost of the I3's and perhaps the limiteds. What's you take on those ideas?

 

Seems super reasonable paired with a struts increase. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, gennataos said:

If that'll encourage swarms to take I3 so I can more easily block them, sure!

I3 swarm has one thing going for it:

Initiative kills. 

That's it. But in Xwing, often that's enough. 

@svelok, I would like to live in that world.

But I just don't think people would ever pick the blocking game over PS kills, unfortunately. 

EDIT: that linked B.roll action does generate value alongside information. 

Edited by Bucknife

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On 6/30/2020 at 3:51 PM, 5050Saint said:

My main rub with Adv. Optics is 5 Omega SFs. I find that list dreadfully boring. So to compensate for the uptick on Optics, the SF Gunner can go down 2 points. It ruins 5 Fanatical Optics Omega SFs, but would offer up 5 SF Gunner Zetas in compensation as a near equivalent to 5X. It would also make it easier for named SFs to take the gunner, since named SFs aren't exactly the hotness right now.

Been stewing on this since yesterday.

I don't think Five Gunner Zetas would be a good thing for the game, or at least not a better thing than 5 Optics Omegas.  Gunner SFs, basically, do more damage than Optics ones.  Rear guns go down 0.3 hits per attack, but forward guns go up 0.45 hits per attack, when compared to Advanced Optics.  Damage pushed will be higher, if we're considering opponents rolling defense dice--a 3rd die can go a long way towards actually overcoming evade results.  Against unfocused 2 agility, rear guns only go down about 0.2 damage per attack, but forward guns go up about 0.5 damage per attack.

Init 2 instead of 3, but that's a pretty big step up overall in damage.  If more than 1/3rd of your attacks are frontwards, you'll be doing more damage, statistically speaking, and that's before the non-zero chance of throwing some front/rear bonus attacks.

Plus, Crack Shot was always better than Fanatical on Optics SFs anyhow (not HS, but still).  SFs just don't lose their shields fast enough, or live long enough with shields down, to outweigh the Crack Shot cancelling evades.

That said, Five. Gunner. Zetas. would be a good meme.

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