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19 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Wait.  Did you start this?  ;)

 

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hey, I'm just happy that my preemptive strike led to mutual peace and the common agreement that RZ2s are fine where they are...

Well, seems like a lot of it started with discussing PhilGCs article where he was suggesting that Zizi, Optics, and Heroic might all be too cheap, as well as Crack Shot.

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

RZ-2s seem like they can easily veer into the unplayably bad, or into something which feels like total BS to fly against.  There's not a lot of comfortable middle ground.

The generic TIE Interceptors tell a fairly similar story; somewhat difficult to balance because they will perform quite differently under one player than another. In honesty I feel the Alpha could still go down as long as Sloane gets her very-much-needed nerf (put her up to 12-14ish she's probably that good). I'm not positive about that though.

 

13 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

It's a useful thing to have, and when timed well and used sparingly, it can help you win games.  But knowing when it's safe to sacrifice health for damage takes some subtlety. This isn't like Treacherous which just doesn't trigger, but Ruthless can be actively bad for your chances of winning the game.

The only reason I don't want Ruthless to be free is so players don't fall into the trap.

See, to me this is all the more reason for it to be free. Imagine a card where the best-use cases are so rare that as often as not you won't bother bringing it: What comes to mind? R5-TK, Jamming Beam...

I just don't see it being problematic in competitive play, it would make flying Sabers, Gammas, Baron V1s, or Black Squadron Aces a lot more interesting, and it's just crazy kinds of fluffy for the imperial faction.

If faction talents are supposed to be just slightly ahead of the power curve (Heroic, Fanatical, Fearless, PT) I'd love to see Ruthless fall in there. And sitting at one point for a year and still being trash tells me it could really stand to be free.

EDIT: Bonus of making Ruthless free; it gives a tiny, tiny incentive to fly pilots that aren't force sensitive since force-sensitives can't take it 😛

Edited by ClassicalMoser
Grammar

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

See, to me this is all the more reason for it to be free. Imagine a card where the best-use cases are so rare that as often as not you won't bother bringing it: What comes to mind? R5-TK, Jamming Beam...

I just don't see it being problematic in competitive play, it would make flying Sabers, Gammas, Baron V1s, or Black Squadron Aces a lot more interesting, and it's just crazy kinds of fluffy for the imperial faction.

If faction talents are supposed to be just slightly ahead of the power curve (Heroic, Fanatical, Fearless, PT) I'd love to see Ruthless fall in there. And sitting at one point for a year and still being trash tells me it could really stand to be free.

EDIT: Bonus of making Ruthless free; it gives a tiny, tiny incentive to fly pilots that aren't force sensitive since force-sensitives can't take it 😛

In terms of balance, it absolutely deserves to cost 0.  I just am afraid of the unintended consequences to player behavior.  I don't want players having a terrible time because they shot their own ships full of holes and didn't accomplish anything.  R5-TK is at least strange enough that, without some specific complicated plan, folks won't use it.  Ruthless isn't necessarily like that.

0 is the right cost for players at large tournaments.  1 is the right cost for folks at the FLGS casual night who don't waste too much time on X-Wing websites.

Some things in this game can and should be balanced around the FLGS casual night.  Ruthless at 1.  Sun Fac and Ensnare nerfed to the ground.  TIE Defenders being so expensive.  I think this kind of casual night pricing should be in cases where the loss to the tournament scene is smaller than the benefit gained by the FLGS.  Ruthless, Ensnare, Defenders--no big loss to the large tournaments, but it makes for a more pleasant experience for casuals.

28 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The generic TIE Interceptors tell a fairly similar story; somewhat difficult to balance because they will perform quite differently under one player than another. In honesty I feel the Alpha could still go down as long as Sloane gets her very-much-needed nerf (put her up to 12-14ish she's probably that good). I'm not positive about that though.

Interceptors should cost the same as Strikers, but that's a long-standing point of disagreement between us.

 

And to be clear, I wasn't talking so much about player fit for RZ-2s, but actual cost.  They were great, then they got slight nerfs and went down, then got Zizi and some slight buffs and came back and still frustrated a lot of people.

Edited by theBitterFig

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4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

0 is the right cost for players at large tournaments.  1 is the right cost for folks at the FLGS casual night who don't waste too much time on X-Wing websites.

I don't really agree here. R5-TK should cost 1 too then, since it will make new players shoot their own ships. Or Jamming beam should cost 1 since it makes new players waste their shots.

To me, a new player should see that something is free and say "hmm, maybe it's not worth much." Also one game of abusing Ruthless should show you why it's free and make you reconsider bringing it a second time. Also a casual player is less likely to care that much about winning and more likely to enjoy how fluffy it feels to kill your own subordinates as an imperial ace.

Also, truly new players make a lot of dumb decisions and they learn from them. I've seen a Kath list with 3 Binayre pirates, all with Intimidation, Feedback Array, and Static Discharge Vanes. He didn't realize that Feedback Array self-damaged and was super crushed when he found out. When you make something cost points, there's a perception of value that's presented. You feel like you'll get something out of your investment. A one-point upgrade isn't really a deterrent to a new player anyway; it takes a while to learn the true value of one point.

Costing it at 1 just so that it's never played seems like a really bad reason to make it never played. It makes me sad when cards are unplayable just so they are unplayable.

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6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don't really agree here. R5-TK should cost 1 too then, since it will make new players shoot their own ships. Or Jamming beam should cost 1 since it makes new players waste their shots.

I think it's a lot easier to understand these things than Ruthless.

A player typically can't accomplish anything by shooting their own ship, so they don't R5-TK themselves.  A lot more often, a player will be in a situation where Ruthless looks good, but is actually counterproductive.

12 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

When you make something cost points, there's a perception of value that's presented.

Fair enough.

I think I've expressed my point of view, so mostly agree to disagree.

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༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ 

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ NERF ACES ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

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1 minute ago, gennataos said:

Hey now, I said "shine" not "dominate"

And I'd definitely want a more equal representation than that. They wouldn't have held up so well against the swarm lists we're seeing now, and there's no way Cassian or Braylen are going to be that cheap in the near future.

Now on the other hand, Kulbee, Leevan, Evaan Verlaine, Saw, Magva, Bodhi Rook, Kallus, Shara Bey, Ibtisam, Leebo, Dutch, Horton, Miranda, Gavin, Oicunn, Morna Kee, Turr Phennir, Rhymer, Karsabi...

The list of dead pilots goes on and on. I'd like to see half of the above names somewhere in the vicinity of the meta. Not dominating it, mind you (6x strikers and 5x X-Wings didn't dominate it either), but at least showing up.

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Posted (edited)

Lets play the 5 Whys of X-Wing.

  • Statement: 
    • Aces are undercosted
  • Why?
    • Because players want them to be.
  • Why?
    • Because Star Wars Characters are cool. 
  • Why?
    • Because Spaceships.  
  • Why?
    • Because Spaceships. 
Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Lets play the 5 Whys of X-Wing.

  • Statement: 
    • Aces are undercosted
  • Why?
    • Because players want them to be.
  • Why?
    • Because Star Wars Characters are cool. 
  • Why?
    • Because Spaceships.  
  • Why?
    • Because Spaceships. 

Twenty fifth letter of the alphabet

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On 6/28/2020 at 10:13 PM, Hiemfire said:

I forget which said it first, but I recall both @Magnus Grendel and @Brunas posting that.

No idea, but happy to take credit for it.

 

Also, how are you all fighting about whether or not RZ2s are too good or not.  Events stop for 3 months and people are mad at... Resistance?

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I'm in the middle of a rewrite (editors note - procrastinating) of ATC, so none of this is on the side yet, but since January of this year, for tournaments with at least 10 players and 65% of lists filled:

QKYSU5r.png

 

GiAtEVc.png

 

Fv6sBRR.png

 

Bottom two are  sorted such that better performances are lower because I'm lazy.  Basically no matter how you look at things, resistance doesn't escape mediocre.  Even A-Wings overall:

 

DUSMeeG.png

 

tl;dr what is even happening, why is anyone yelling at a-wings, they're middling at best.  Is the rabble rousing going to be over stock t65s next?

 

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