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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Uses "a" and not "1". If Soontir ends up in the bullseye of 3 Belbullabs simultaneously all 3 instances are processed as separate opportunities.

"A" charge, not "any number of charges."

There's literally zero reason to think multiple friendlies can get locks.  Nothing on the card implies it in any way.

The opportunity is the enemy ship moving, however, not a friendly ship having a bullseye.  That only happens once, so Kalani only works once.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

There is nothing limiting the number of times Kalani's ability can trigger in a Round other than the number of charges Kalani has.

Times per round?  Limited only by charges.

Times per enemy maneuver?  Once.  That's just the rules of the game.

Now, it's easy to conceive of alternate language for Kalani which doesn't run into Once-Per-Opportunity issues.  Barrage Rockets has text which clearly explains that multiple charges can be used for larger effects, and the upcoming Multi-Missile Pods are somewhat similar.  Kalani just says "spend a charge."

Could FFG rule that Kalani works for multiple friendly ships on a single opportunity?  Sure, they can rule anything.  But it won't because they wrote a card that allows this; it'll be by fiat and degree rather than the text of the card.  I don't mind if they do that, but it's worth understanding that it's not what they wrote.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

It's that after a maneuver into ship A's bullseye, a (first player) ship places FTC into the ability queue, Kalani's requirement is satisfied and enters the ability queue, FTC resolves and rolls out of ship A's bullseye but into ship B's bullseye, Kalani's requirement is satisfied by ship B and resolves, Kalani grants a lock/stress to ship B.

I'm not convinced by that.

Since an ability has to meet the requirements both to enter the queue and to be resolved, and the text on Kalani refers to "that friendly ship," it seems like the most accurate reading is that it has to be the same ship for both the trigger and the resolution.  Since "that friendly ship" no longer has bullseye on the enemy, I think the requirements aren't met.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

23 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Gosh, this is the kind of convoluted ruling that puts me of.

Keep it simple, FFG.

I kinda think FFG has (mostly).  I think it's mostly us who've complicated it.

To me, it seems like FFG's goal in their ruling about requirements and timings was specifically to prevent situations where there's some change in meeting the requirements.  The "overly simplified" version of the ruling is this:

  • If you want to add something to the queue, you have to be able to do it right then
  • If you don't meet the requirements, you can't add it to the queue.
    • It can't be "I'll add it now, and meet the requirements later.
  • When you resolve the ability, you still have to be able to do it.
  • If you don't meet the requirements anymore, it doesn't resolve, and the effect is ignored.

If I'm a judge, and given a question along these lines, that's how I'd rule things.  You have to be able to do the whole thing on entering the queue, you have to be able to do the whole thing when resolving.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Times per enemy maneuver?  Once.  That's just the rules of the game.

Now, it's easy to conceive of alternate language for Kalani which doesn't run into Once-Per-Opportunity issues.  Barrage Rockets has text which clearly explains that multiple charges can be used for larger effects, and the upcoming Multi-Missile Pods are somewhat similar.  Kalani just says "spend a charge."

Fair. I'd reread the Once per Opportunity section and am in the process of reprocessing it in my head (which is why I haven't pushed that interpretation since I originally posted it other than to mention it as a disagreement).

Edited by Hiemfire

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Posted (edited)

Is it odd that I'm tempted by Imdaar Test Pilots?

  • Two Imdaar plus Afterburners Vader leaves 38-41 points, depending on Passive Sensors.  Enough for some sort of 4th ship, some kind of generic.
  • Two Imdaar plus two mid-priced aces (Soontir, Duchess with Force, Grand Inquisitor, etc) seems like a tidy little package.
  • Two Imdaar plus three Academy Pilots plus a Scarif Base Pilot with Sloane is a perfect 200.  Seems kinda scary.
  • Three Imdaar plus two generic Inquisitors is almost meaty.  Everyone is a mobile Init 3, so maybe can out-ace generics while out-beefing aces.
  • Three Imdaar plus Whisper (Passives + 5th Bro) fits cleanly.

TIE_Phantom_600px.gif

Maybe I'm going stir crazy.

Crazy like a fox?

7811c91cdb9e81142cd41b33ab9d8094.gif

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Is it odd that I'm tempted by Imdaar Test Pilots?

  • Two Imdaar plus Afterburners Vader leaves 38-41 points, depending on Passive Sensors.  Enough for some sort of 4th ship, some kind of generic.
  • Two Imdaar plus two mid-priced aces (Soontir, Duchess with Force, Grand Inquisitor, etc) seems like a tidy little package.
  • Two Imdaar plus three Academy Pilots plus a Scarif Base Pilot with Sloane is a perfect 200.  Seems kinda scary.
  • Three Imdaar plus two generic Inquisitors is almost meaty.  Everyone is a mobile Init 3, so maybe can out-ace generics while out-beefing aces.
  • Three Imdaar plus Whisper (Passives + 5th Bro) fits cleanly.

TIE_Phantom_600px.gif

Maybe I'm going stir crazy.

Crazy like a fox?

7811c91cdb9e81142cd41b33ab9d8094.gif

 

I mean, when I was looking at the Phantom costs vs T-65s, even the basic Imdaar came out really favorably and never got a real nerf.

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on todays episode of kicking the nest, 

tournament regulations should be updated to state a legal list consists of 3-8 ships

in terms of increase to quality of life and overall fun, versus level of pain/friction involved in implementing the change, this might be the single highest ranking item on the list

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Is it odd that I'm tempted by Imdaar Test Pilots?

Maybe I'm going stir crazy.

when I briefly was looking at what a "hyperspace plus" format, that tried to include as much of extended as possible while still retaining the good parts of hyperspace, the TIE Phantom was the one ship that seemed like it would break the format no matter what short of all pilots being banned

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

on todays episode of kicking the nest, 

tournament regulations should be updated to state a legal list consists of 3-8 ships

in terms of increase to quality of life and overall fun, versus level of pain/friction involved in implementing the change, this might be the single highest ranking item on the list

Just like how bad aces are really fun, bad two-ship lists are also really fun.

Unfortunately, there are good two-ship lists.

I've got no problem giving them the axe.

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Posted (edited)

Useful Two Ship Lists Since the Start of 2.0:

  • Super Han + 
  • Super Boba + 
  • Super Guri + 
  • Super Kylo + 
  • Super Vader + 
  • Super Ani + 
  • Super Rex + 
  • Maul + Dooku 

Did I miss any?

Edited by Boom Owl

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10 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Is it odd that I'm tempted by Imdaar Test Pilots?

https://xwingontherocks.blogspot.com/2019/10/from-imdaar-with-love.html

Wrote that before the points changes made Imdaars/Whisper significantly better, thanks to Passive Sensors and making the Imdaars even cheaper(!!!). It’s still a very strong list. That said, the meta feels less favourable to them than it used to. I seem to run into more jam now than I did previously, and Phantoms struggle against both highly modified 4+ die attacks (so Boba/Fenn is a problem) as well as high quantities of attacks (so things like 5A, Scyks, etc can actually be a problem as well).

I think I came like 17th or 18th at the last Space Jam with it (losing to two Boba/Dengar lists), both losses were extremely close and most of the wins were pretty one-sided. Similar experience at Worlds last year. Absolutely did not feel like a list with that “this will never make the cut” feeling in either event. Aside from the meta shifting a little, the only reason I stopped heavily using it in stuff like VASSAL league was I was worried I was starting to get predictable, otherwise I still think this is an extremely strong HS option. If I can have the success I’ve had with Imdaars, someone who actually knows how to play X-Wing well should be able to win a thing or two with them.

Highly underrated Imperial option.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Useful Two Ship Lists Since the Start of 2.0:

  • Super Han + 
  • Super Boba + 
  • Super Guri + 
  • Super Kylo + 
  • Super Vader + 
  • Super Ani + 
  • Super Rex + 
  • Maul + Dooku 

Did I miss any?

RAC + Whisper should probably be on there.

Roark + Dash Ship with Han Gunner was a rules gimmick, but that counts, IMO.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

3 to 7, because why not.

Swarms did nothing wrong and it pains me to cave, but in this instance, I would accept the loss in trade for the killing of 2ship

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

3 to 7, because why not.

That might be kinda fun.  Swarm lists would have to be fancier ships or take more upgrades.  Seems more interesting than FOCHO.  Along with @svelok I don't have a problem with lists of 8, but a limit to 7 probably means some cool things happen.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)

Changing Tournament regs to 3-8 seems rather razor focused on eliminating Boba and does nothing to deal with Imperial consistency, just as 3-7 seems to only focus on S&V and Seps… Why not just nuke it all and have a tournament legal list consist of 5 ships. No more, no less. Or even better, just don't call for them to mess with the tournament regs to eliminate a list that annoys/enrages you.

Edited by Hiemfire

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2 hours ago, gennataos said:

"I don't like thing, I propose sweeping change to remove thing I don't like"

😴

No, wait. ...

I don't like this other thing over here more!

I vote to rules-murder this other thing first and I'll consider supporting the breaking of the thing you don't like someday. Maybe.  

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When it comes to two-ship builds, I think it's telling that pretty much every one of that that has been successful has had some sort of pre-dial movement tricks.  Inertial Dampeners, Slave One, Supernatural Reflexes, Advanced Sensors.

There's a fair case to be made that most of the disgust at 2-ship builds is misplaced anger at pre-dial movement tricks.

To that end: new question:

If there's no pre-dial reposition or maneuver-changing, are 2-ship lists still something folks hate?  

As I said before, bad 2-ship builds are fun, so there's my answer.

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41 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If there's no pre-dial reposition or maneuver-changing, are 2-ship lists still

I don't know if any current builds have the stacks and stacks of passive mods needed for two ships to trade point-for-point with a lot of things, but maul crew with boba pilot comes closest, even without slave 1.

In 1.0 two-ship.lists tended* to rely on stacks of offensive and defensive mods (or card combos, see 1.0 raclo+) to mitigate or entirely neutralize incoming damage.  Ghost Fenn *could* boost as ps11, but it was more often to get shots rather than avoid getting shot.

In 2.0, such stacks of mods tend to not exist on high-hp platforms, boba being an exception.  And the others that can (asajj, Hera, rac, maul, etc) tend to have time on target issues that make their potent offense less consistent.  An issue that Boba's rear arc+boost mitigates.

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If in one's shortsightedness one did not create a curated list removing most aces, one would find Boba hardly a problem. 

Second, of the 2 ship lists, very few are really good in the hands of normal players. I hated 2 ship fat fortress in 1.0, but 2.0 is way different. 

All I can see here is: Guri Fenn (not an easy list), Boba Fenn (definitely something to fix), Anakin Obiwan (maybe with a Torrent)(is honestly reasonably good). 

 

Theres no reason to remove 2 ship lists, and I stand as one who hated them. They no longer dominate. People should be allowed to play them. (1 ship currently shouldn't be a thing, as its so bad its more likely to be intentional losing, which is bad for tournaments.) Stop being silly curators and hyperspace junkies where you think you have the biased ability to just ban whatever you don't like. Also get wrecked whenever someone ugly rears its head because you banned everything that was keeping in it balance. Geez, people being worse than the Jedi Council on balance. Y'all don't seem to understand bulk, blocking and time. You want balance? I will give you Darth Vader of your own making. 

 

Any sort of Rexler Kylo 2 ship lists just gets destroyed by any level of competent bulk play. Cmon people. Level up and learn to play better. 

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If in one's shortsightedness one did not create a curated list removing most aces, one would find Boba hardly a problem.

Way to get everything backwards.

Boba wasn't caused by removal of aces, Boba was caused because he wasn't removed with the rest.  Even with Boba Fett, the folks who like Hyperspace tend to like it because Aces are a more balanced part of a healthy X-Wing diet.

Edited by theBitterFig

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Boba wasn't caused by removal of aces

Honestly Wedge, Quickdraw, and Soontir would help massively with suppressing Slave 1 Boba in Hyper but its the worst possible solution to it. 

There are much better options beyond "just add more i6s because we cant predict where 8 maneuver unblockable mod Boba will be" .

As far as I am concerned Slave 1 Maul Boba is in a similar category to Kanan Han from awhile back. 

I simply don't care that its beatable. I know its beatable, there are in game answers to it.

Either way that misses the point and is a non-factor.

It should be massively more expensive or impossible to field because its not interesting. 

Its not like Boba (without Crew/Slave1) + Fenn + 1 ship would be a bad list in hyperspace.

It might even be a better list in hyperspace without other chad bid Boba/Fenns to prey on it. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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32 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Honestly Wedge, Quickdraw, and Soontir would help massively with suppressing Slave 1 Boba in Hyper but its the worst possible solution to it. 

I guess I'd call that... kind of an optical illusion.

I think how we choose to look at it matters.  Boba, rather than being caused by the removal of his counters, is more properly understood as part of the class of things that were mostly removed.  He's that little patch of grass in the freshly-mowed lawn that got missed, and it just tortures you to look at it, but it's hot and you don't want to go out and mow again.

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