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3 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Okay. Fair. 

Both can have utility similar to the RZ1. 

Probably both broken with Vectored Thrusters, honestly. 

 

🤨 How so?

For reference:

/Fo:

Slots: Mod, Tech

Maneuver tie folatest?cb=20181108040242

M3-A:

Slots: Mod, single slot "hardpoint" (missile, torp or cannon)

Maneuver m3alatest?cb=20180914111220

RZ-1:

Slots: Talent, Missile

Maneuver a-winglatest?cb=20180914000309

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@Hiemfire, Correction:

4 point Vectored on the M3a could be very useful. The same would be good-but-boring on the FO (discount unlimited afterburner TIEs would be pretty great, but that's what Interceptors were made for). 

Lock+Boost with Proton Torps or HLC at I4/5 would be powerful for M3s. 

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I’m of the opinion Phoenixes are super close to good and the reason we don’t see them is a combination of 

- rebel players would rather have a couple named pilots with proton torpedoes or lot of abilities and combowing than just some faceless dudes

- the rebel faction has a lot of options, limiting the need to even try them 

- there isn’t really a rebel equivalent to Kylo, and TIE/FOs are well-adapted to serving as a distraction/bait/diversion/blocker to help things like Kylo achieve a favorable endgame, the Rebel faction doesn’t have the kind of ace ship that needs/wants them

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11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I should add: although I'm fine with Redfins and Bluecoats having different prices, that doesn't necessarily mean the Rebel A-Wing is correct.

Flip it around.  Suppose you could take Vectored Thrusters as an upgrade and gain a Boost (white or linked-red) for 4 points.  How many TIE/fo and Scyks take it?  (...)

Whatever we think the theoretical value of Vectored Thrusters is, generic A-Wings have worked out a lot worse for Rebels than TIE/fo for FO and Scyks for Scum.

The 4 points difference gives you not just boost and linked action, but also a massively better dial (among others that sweet blue 2 hard).

 

11 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Part of the problem is probably that people assume you'll get crazy value for a generic having a linked boost and good dial, but it's a generic with 2 attack dice and 4 hp.  It's not your finisher, it's a filler ship, who cares if it goes faster while being a filler ship?

As a certain podcaster would express it: the lost art of blocking. Generic (or even 4Ini aces) A-wings are fantastic for blocking highly mobile enemies.

Scyks e.g. have much weaker blocking potential and power, as it is a lot more difficult to pull it off.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

The 4 points difference gives you not just boost and linked action, but also a massively better dial (among others that sweet blue 2 hard).

 

As a certain podcaster would express it: the lost art of blocking. Generic (or even 4Ini aces) A-wings are fantastic for blocking highly mobile enemies.

Scyks e.g. have much weaker blocking potential and power, as it is a lot more difficult to pull it off.

 

You can block without a linked boost perfectly fine.  Access to repos is ideal for blocking, but you don't need to link it for it to be effective and if it's not the central focus of the list, but just a blocker and extra source of hp/dice, then it doesn't really benefit you to dump more points into it.

Edited by MasterShake2

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3 hours ago, Managarmr said:

The 4 points difference gives you not just boost and linked action, but also a massively better dial (among others that sweet blue 2 hard).

And yet, while true for a Scyk, that *cannot* be said of a TIE/fo.  That has the same blue 2 hard.

Plus, the M3A dial differences are balanced out by the rather-quite-strong Cannon slot.

As much as you want to say "oh, but the A-Wing is a better blocker," that really misses the fact that A-Wings are far less successful ships.

Given the massive similarities (not identical, but close enough, FFS), the cost differential is probably pretty impactful.

So the non-force TIE/v1 just went down to 30 points in January.  Now that's a nearly identical ship to an A-Wing.  Baron of the Empire is two points cheaper than a Green A-Wing.

 

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3 hours ago, Managarmr said:

As a certain podcaster would express it: the lost art of blocking. Generic (or even 4Ini aces) A-wings are fantastic for blocking highly mobile enemies.

Scyks e.g. have much weaker blocking potential and power, as it is a lot more difficult to pull it off.

I've found blocking is less amazing than it seems like it should be. The blocker loses its shot, and the blocked ship will happily blast something else in the swarm. Capitalizing on blocking requires having ships to take advantage of the (sometimes not even tokenless) blockee ... which leads back to the cost of A-wings reducing the available offensive points/ships elsewhere in the list.

Still, if the RZ-1 is overcosted, it's probably by only a point or two. They're probably one solid talent away from being "good". If Crack Shot were in hyperspace, RZ-1s would probably make a much bigger showing.

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

So what do the lists look like in the end?

Since S&V is my primary faction I'll use them and the assumption that your hypothetical upgrade adds Vectored Thrusters and White Boost ( I think that is how you have it worded).

Hammer and Anvil, Strike and Fade (aka Hit and Run), Flank and Harry (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/harry).  Those sort of lists which, while semi-possible now, are incredibly hampered by the relative lack of mobility of the M3-A compared to other "Interceptor" platforms. (Don't plot out the M3-A's maneuver + action map and compare it to large base ships or medium fighters that are not Kihraxz's, much less to other "interceptors". The lack of distance a M3-A can cover is depressing.) 

An example H&A, leaving points for your hypothetical upgrade:

Cartel Executioner (41)
Marksmanship (1)
R3 Astromech (3)
Contraband Cybernetics (2)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Cartel Executioner (41)
Marksmanship (1)
R3 Astromech (3)
Contraband Cybernetics (2)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)
Total: 186

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

A second H&A, Once again leaving points:

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)

Black Sun Ace (40)
Predator (2)

Black Sun Ace (40)
Predator (2)
Total: 186

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Strike and Fade, leaving points for the hypothetical upgrade:

Sunny Bounder (27)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)

Cartel Spacer (25)
Autoblasters (3)
Total: 170

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Flank and Harry, with points for the hypothetical once again:

Krassis Trelix (65)
Elusive (3)
Cluster Missiles (5)

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Trick Shot (4)
Tractor Beam (3)

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Trick Shot (4)
Ion Cannon (6)

Tansarii Point Veteran (29)
Trick Shot (4)
Heavy Laser Cannon (5)
Total: 186

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

 

Admittedly Serissu would probably have to go up a few points if your hypothetical upgrade was ever implemented.

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1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Since S&V is my primary faction I'll use them and the assumption that your hypothetical upgrade adds Vectored Thrusters and White Boost ( I think that is how you have it worded).

Hammer and Anvil, Strike and Fade (aka Hit and Run), Flank and Harry (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/harry).  Those sort of lists which, while semi-possible now, are incredibly hampered by the relative lack of mobility of the M3-A compared to other "Interceptor" platforms. (Don't plot out the M3-A's maneuver + action map and compare it to large base ships or medium fighters that are not Kihraxz's, much less to other "interceptors". The lack of distance a M3-A can cover is depressing.)

Thanks.

Vectored Scyk wouldn't be bad, probably a bit better than an A-Wing due to Cannon flexibility, but nothing I'd really think of as problematic.

I guess when I look at most of these lists, something pretty similar could be built in live X-Wing, with an extra Scyk, if they weren't getting Vectored and with slight trims elsewhere.  Six roosters vs seven regular Autoblasters Scyks seems like an interesting thought experiment to me.  Personally, I think I'd rather have the extra ship, but it'd be interesting to see how it would shake out.

Of course, it's kind of a "Heads I Win, Tails You Lose" sort of thing for my argument.  If M3-As with Vectored Thrusters aren't good enough, that shows RZ-1s aren't good enough.  If the thing that makes an M3-A with Vectored good is the Cannon, that shows that the A-Wing still needs a lot of help, and absent affordable missiles, they're probably, well, a little bit too expensive.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Admittedly Serissu would probably have to go up a few points if your hypothetical upgrade was ever implemented.

It's not remotely intended for implementation, just a thought experiment.

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's not remotely intended for implementation, just a thought experiment.

I didn't think it was, just covering a possibly problematic pilot that might cause angry challenges to this thought experiment. :)

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2 hours ago, QQMoore said:

I've found blocking is less amazing than it seems like it should be. The blocker loses its shot, and the blocked ship will happily blast something else in the swarm. Capitalizing on blocking requires having ships to take advantage of the (sometimes not even tokenless) blockee ... which leads back to the cost of A-wings reducing the available offensive points/ships elsewhere in the list.

Still, if the RZ-1 is overcosted, it's probably by only a point or two. They're probably one solid talent away from being "good". If Crack Shot were in hyperspace, RZ-1s would probably make a much bigger showing.

Blocking used to matter more when people flew ships that needed to get actions to get dice mods

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

I didn't think it was, just covering a possibly problematic pilot that might cause angry challenges to this thought experiment. :)

I mean, I don't think she would be.  45 points for a Boosting Serissu is good, but like, that's more than Zizi Tlo or L'ulo L'ampar.  In no way am I saying "give her boost" since I want ships to feel different on the table, but like, I don't think it'd be a serious problem.

Edited by theBitterFig

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9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, I don't think she would be.  45 points for a Boosting Serissu is good, but like, that's more than Zizi Tlo or L'ulo L'ampar.  In no way am I saying "give her boost" since I want ships to feel different on the table, but like, I don't think it'd be a serious problem.

Toss on AB and Marks as well as the hypothetical upgrade and I can see where people would start having issues with her bare price. I5, Def reroll against every attack pointed her way (and mother ducking her friendlies in R1) with the ability to Foc> Boost or Roll> Boost (among other combos). I can smell the comparisons to Fel from here.

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i1 interceptor - 3/3/3 (31)
i1 striker - 3/2/4 (31)
i1 b22 - 3/2/5 (35)
zeb - 3/2/4 (32)

i1 ab syck - 3/3/4 (28)
-> please note this as the only ship to have posted a track record

even if concussion missiles were for some reason 3pts but only for awings, I still dont think I'd believe in lock-based-missile-wings at 32pts. that leaves prockets, hypothetically, barrage, or price reductions to the chassis (alternately and acceptably accomplished relatively, instead, by price increases to all good stuff). I suppose 30pt procket-wings sound somewhat spooky, so there may be a prockets price that works, but would once again have to fall into the for some reason deeply subsidized but only for awings timeline. 2 dice boosting generics is a narrow category, but the only ones to have stared down the limelight are the ones with purple. the tie /fo, the main 2-dice not-separatist ship to have achieved success (though perhaps less than people seem to be under the broad impression of, particularly for focho) is famous primarily for the fact that its dial has kylo ren's phone number tucked into it on a paper napkin. the baron of the empire is a cool pilot that nobody uses because inquisitors only cost 5 points more and by this point I've lost the plot of my point entirely but boost isnt worth much on i1 generics and vanilla 2 dice ships are mostly all bad.

in conclusion, 690278362065011030.png.

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@svelok Only 3 of the 5 you listed actually have the ability to "boost", neither the ab scyk nor the cancel crits first attack shuttle Zeb do (not to mention part of Zeb's cost is the ship ability that enables the VCX to doubletap out the aft arc when the shuttle is docked with it), and the Striker's pre reveal "boost" makes it squirrelier than heck... An apples, to oranges, to kumquats, to kiwis comparison to try and justify a ship with the second best dial in the game + token into boost for a rapid alphastrike getting a munition that is derp level simple to get the equivalent of focus+lock 3 die against large bases, fairly simple for the same against medium bases? Jake alone makes this beyond questionable as an upgrade for the RZ-1, but being able to mass it as well? Please no.

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Posted (edited)

There are also a couple key differences between AB and BR. BR is range 2-3 3 die ordinance while AB is a range 1-2 2 die base cannon. Ya, AB can roll upto 4 die if it is in range 1 and bullseye, BR rolls 3 die and denys the range bonus def dice regardless of if the target is inside its bullseye arc or not.

Edited by Hiemfire

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Posted (edited)

Hiem, 

It's clear you really believe in the RZ1s as-is (correct me if I'm wrong). 

I don't know if anyone here is saying they're bad. 

Maybe a few believe they're a couple points overcosted as generics. 

I think most of us are also saying in different ways that generic RZ1s current "viable" loadouts are less than exciting. 

For context: thematically, nobody bats an eye at a couple of naked TIE Strikers; ailerons and dial all work together to give everyone the feel of what that ship is there to do.  

Take a couple of vanilla Phoenix RZ1s, however, and I think most people are curious about, "oooo... no Intimation? No janky I1 Squad Leader? No Crack Shot? Snap?........ Wait..... Nothing?"

It's principally a matter of competitive theme. Almost, you could say, a wordless gentlemanly agreement to bring Star Wars with you to the table. 

When people feel competitively strapped or alienated for bringing their Star Wars to the table (say, 4 Procket RZ1s + mini ace) in a Star Wars game, just don't be too surprised or harsh when the viable meta slaps those people across the face, and then they're hurt and offended and maybe a little confused. 

That's mostly where these debates are coming from, bud. 

If you want to help these people (like me) along and out of their disappointed perspectives, you're gonna have to find some more productive angles. 

Edited by Bucknife
Misspelling and idea clarification.

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Okay. Thanks for the clarification. 

I must've not been tracking super well with all the back and forth here. 

Barrage is double missile slot, right? 

Clearly not initially intended for A-Wings. I don't blame you for feeling like that'd be kinda broken. 

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10 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I don't know if anyone here is saying they're bad. 

I'm saying generic a-wings are bad

10 hours ago, Bucknife said:

For context: thematically, nobody bats an eye at a couple of naked TIE Strikers; ailerons and dial all work together to give everyone the feel of what that ship is there to do.  

this is part of a side bit about theme but for the record I am also saying generic strikers are bad

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10 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I don't know if anyone here is saying they're bad. 

Maybe a few believe they're a couple points overcosted as generics. 

Isn't that the same thing as being bad? 

To that end, when I say defund the police, I mean literally defund the police.  (Cut the number and budget in half, use the money on social services.  More effective, more humane.)

10 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Do RZ-1s need help? Most likely and I'm not opposed to them having something done to increase their playability. My issue is specifically with the concept of Barrage RZ-1s. Nothing more than that.

It's felt like you've been pushing back when I've said the same things (no BR, but they need a price cut) through the last few pages.  If that wasn't your intention, all good, no harm, no foul.

11 minutes ago, svelok said:

but for the record I am also saying generic strikers are bad

Here we differ.  I'm not saying Strikers and interceptors are amazing, but I think they're "good enough." I think everything being top-table-large-tournaments is impossible, but Strikers and Interceptors have been part of some good enough squads (often with Sloane, but sometimes as filler or spam-swarm).  Planetary Sentinel 14th on Metawing since Jaunary, ahead of the Blue Escort T-65... Shouldn't read too much into this given the circumstances, but clearly not dumpster tier.

Same can't quite be said about A-Wings, IMHO.

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