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1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

Purely on theme, I'd rather see 5 rebel A be a powerhouse than 5RZ2s. 

Phoenix Squadron was all A-Wings for most of its tour in Rebels. 

There's the one madman who ran 6A in this tournament

  • Phoenix Squadron Pilot + Intimidation (x5)
  • Arvel Crynyd + Intimidation

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27 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If it can be broken but dominant, then.....?  Just don't like them?

When they're being used as a "but it still isn't as good as" reference point to try and build a case for a very high mobility ship with it's entire action bar linked to boost (other than the boost on the action bar) to get access to an easily double modded ordinance upgrade (Brockets on a target in bullseye = Focus + Lock on 3 die that ignores bonus range dice)? And here I thought you liked flying Rey.

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8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe, yes. But not more boring than not being played at all 🤷🏻‍♂️

This, just if it could be applied evenly...

8 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

#barragerocketsdidnothingwrong

#deleteforce

Agreed, I never had a game with Barrage Rocket carriers that I thought, "I'm not in this no mater what I do... what the **** is happening?!?"

Whereas many games with Force using, High Initiative opponents, I thought the above and simply wanted the game to end already.

#letsbereal

#barragerocketsdidnothingwrong

#deleteforce

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Posted (edited)

A thought experiment. Two factions. Let's say Bluecoats and Redfins, and two ships. Both ships have the exact same statline of 2/3/3/1 and the exact same ship ability. Redfins have a faction-restricted, non-limited upgrade that is pretty good, let's say to reroll one die per attack and defense.

Should the ships cost the same in both factions?

Edited by GreenDragoon
yeah was a typo

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5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A thought experiment. Two factions. Let's say Bluecoats and Redfins, and two ships. Both ships have the exact same statline of 2/3/3/1 and the exact same ship ability. Redcoats have a faction-restricted, non-limited upgrade that is pretty good, let's say to reroll one die per attack and defense.

Should the ships cost the same in both factions?

Assuming Redcoats is a typo, the dials are also the same and there are no other possible considerations, i.e. synergies with other ship types or pilots within faction, then yes. The ships should have the same cost and the "cost" of having access to the upgrade should be part of the upgrade's cost.

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14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So I started playing Hyperspace again and realized X-Wing is actually super fun. Weird.

Thanks Max. Cant wait to open the new pdf.

I find myself constantly cycling between 

>this game isn't fun 
>burnout 
>don't play for a couple weeks 
>cautiously play hyperspace
>have fun
>play more
>try extended
rinse repeat

I need to learn to stay somewhere between steps 5 and 6

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

A thought experiment. Two factions. Let's say Bluecoats and Redfins, and two ships. Both ships have the exact same statline of 2/3/3/1 and the exact same ship ability. Redfins have a faction-restricted, non-limited upgrade that is pretty good, let's say to reroll one die per attack and defense.

Should the ships cost the same in both factions?

We already have this, right? Z-95s for example. Despite the presence of an extra slot on Binayre vs Bandit (at 22), and an extra init on Black Sun Soldier vs Tala Squadron Pilot (at 24), the Rebel Zs seem more common. It could be because the faction-locked talents are not particularly good on Zs (Selfless, Fearless).

We know from MTG, Hearthstone, and other "faction-locked" games that different factions get the same ability at different prices, simply because they have different support pieces surrounding that ability. However:

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

The ships should have the same cost and the "cost" of having access to the upgrade should be part of the upgrade's cost.

I think either of these are fair design approaches. Unavoidably, upgrades have to be priced based on which ships can access it; having the slot priced into the ship results in ships that are too inefficient to run naked because they've "pre-paid" ("illicit tax"; maybe Y-wing turrets).

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15 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

So I haven't really been around the X-Wing boards much... We actually haven't heard any more news on the new official app that's supposed to be coming? Really?

Guessing it got stalled with Covid happening and other things. I see no reason to push for its release atm unless either a new wave comes out, point changes happen, and/or organized play starts coming back.

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33 minutes ago, QQMoore said:

We already have this, right? Z-95s for example. Despite the presence of an extra slot on Binayre vs Bandit (at 22), and an extra init on Black Sun Soldier vs Tala Squadron Pilot (at 24), the Rebel Zs seem more common. It could be because the faction-locked talents are not particularly good on Zs (Selfless, Fearless).

Interestingly the BSS vs Tala really isn't an example of this due to the BSS being init 3 compared to the Tala's init 2.

A place where a "slot tax" exists is demonstrated in the differences between Scum and Rebel generic Y-Wings. Goons and Hired Guns are both 1 init lower than their Rebel counterparts (Grey and Gold squadron pilots respectively) but cost the same as their Rebel counterparts. Besides the initiative differences the Scum Y-Wings have Illicit Slots. While the difference between I1 and 2 or I2 with talent and I3 with talent is minute against the field, it does provide an advantage in the possible mirror match. Though this might be where something I mentioned in my reply to @GreenDragoon as assumed not to exist in his hypothetical. In faction synergies. FFG may consider a possible synergy within S&V to be strong enough to offset the clear disadvantage that Scum Y-Wings have against the equally costed but better capable (when only compared to each other with no other factors included) Rebel counterparts. Drea could be one, Torkil another, and there is also Serissu.

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

A thought experiment. Two factions. Let's say Bluecoats and Redfins, and two ships. Both ships have the exact same statline of 2/3/3/1 and the exact same ship ability. Redfins have a faction-restricted, non-limited upgrade that is pretty good, let's say to reroll one die per attack and defense.

Should the ships cost the same in both factions?

Depends on a few things, but probably (at least to start).

If the faction-restricted, non-limited "Sharktooth" upgrade is fairly priced, then it's easier for the two ships to cost the same.  However, maybe the Sharktooth is deliberately under-priced because it just works out better that way for the entire faction.  In which case, I've got no problem with a Redfin being more expensive.  I care more about a Redfin + Sharktooth combo being correctly priced.

It could also be the case that listbuilding synergies are just a lot stronger for the Bluecoats, and they have a heart-of-the-swarm ship which the Redfins lack.  If the Bluecoats have strong synergies, and the Redfins have access to an underpriced strong upgrade, maybe it balances out.  Or perhaps the Redfins have both their HotS and the Sharktooth, and really should cost more.

But usually, the ships aren't quite as similar.  Compare classic to Mining Guild TIEs.  Same price, but not.  MGT has a potent ship ability.  Downside?  Fewer pilots and a lot fewer listbuilding synergies.  No Howlrunner.  No Sloane.  Drea has been priced into oblivion.  So the MGT pays less for what it gets, because faction synergies in Empire are stronger.  FFG tends to put a bit more of a difference in the ships, so that they could point to something and say "look, this costs more, but it gets more."

And on top of this, if we see a long trend of one outperforming the other, prices diverging might be best.

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3 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

This, just if it could be applied evenly...

Agreed, I never had a game with Barrage Rocket carriers that I thought, "I'm not in this no mater what I do... what the **** is happening?!?"

Whereas many games with Force using, High Initiative opponents, I thought the above and simply wanted the game to end already.

#letsbereal

#barragerocketsdidnothingwrong

#deleteforce

I'm sure many Barrage Rockets have never personally done anything wrong, but they've still made a decision to be part of a corrupt system, and they aren't fixing it.

Few ships came out the gate more hobbled than the TIE Aggressor (can you all believe they used to cost 30 points?).  TIE Bombers got massively slapped with the nerfbat because the 34 point cost of a BR Scimitar was out-of-proportion with how FFG was pricing their 3-red ships.  Quad K-Wing got nerfed to oblivion.  Why?  A huge part of that was... yep... Barrage Rockets.  It's a bit strange, since they're by-and-large not as good as a standard 3-dice primary weapon.  And yet, we see these results.  It's like, adding a nearly-vanilla, slightly-worse 3-dice attack to a 2-dice ship just kinda upends thing.  This is why I've always railed against 2e Mangler Cannon, and kind of dread whatever the cannon is in the HMP Gunship preview.  On it's own, Barrage Rockets look kind of harmless, but they appear to have broad and unintended consequences.

Imagine instead an X-Wing edition that never had Barrage Rockets, at least nothing like their current form.  All these ships which either started out trash, or had to get massive nerfs, could be fairly priced.  New double-missile ships could be added without worry.  There should be some form of missiles which have an easier task with actions, but that should be balanced with stricter positional requirements.

Sure, it's easy to point to Force users and see the injustice.  To be sure, it is unjust and should be addressed.  But structural problems like major differences in efficiency still have large impacts on the entire points economy of X-Wing.

#itstheknockoneffects

#efficiencyisreal

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11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Depends on a few things, but probably (at least to start).

If the faction-restricted, non-limited "Sharktooth" upgrade is fairly priced, then it's easier for the two ships to cost the same.  However, maybe the Sharktooth is deliberately under-priced because it just works out better that way for the entire faction.  In which case, I've got no problem with a Redfin being more expensive.  I care more about a Redfin + Sharktooth combo being correctly priced.

It could also be the case that listbuilding synergies are just a lot stronger for the Bluecoats, and they have a heart-of-the-swarm ship which the Redfins lack.  If the Bluecoats have strong synergies, and the Redfins have access to an underpriced strong upgrade, maybe it balances out.  Or perhaps the Redfins have both their HotS and the Sharktooth, and really should cost more.

But usually, the ships aren't quite as similar.  Compare classic to Mining Guild TIEs.  Same price, but not.  MGT has a potent ship ability.  Downside?  Fewer pilots and a lot fewer listbuilding synergies.  No Howlrunner.  No Sloane.  Drea has been priced into oblivion.  So the MGT pays less for what it gets, because faction synergies in Empire are stronger.  FFG tends to put a bit more of a difference in the ships, so that they could point to something and say "look, this costs more, but it gets more."

And on top of this, if we see a long trend of one outperforming the other, prices diverging might be best.

 

There's also the question of role in that, if a game element fulfills a role that it's faction/deck/whatever already has in spades, then it's slot will inherently be more competitive.  If there is nothing else in that space, it has no competition, so as long as the price isn't prohibitive, it doesn't matter.  If you want to have that role, you have to take that element anyways. 

Example:   If you have one melee unit, it has no point of comparison in faction, so if you want melee, you take it.

 

You also have the question of taxing certains roles/abilities etc for specific factions, usually with a mind of faction identity to differentiate elements.  An example in say Warmachine would be if a faction had lots of speed boosts, but no Pathfinder to navigate terrain.  In that case, giving Pathfinder would likely come with a substantial tax because it removes an assumed restriction on all of the speed boosts you get.  This is assuming the developers even think it's a good idea to give the faction Pathfinder in the first place.

 

In the hypothetical example, the 2/3/3/1 statline hasn't existed in the bluecoats and upgrades were added to the bluecoats to increase the agility of their traditionally AGL 1 ships, along with supporting pilots that help their offense be more consistent.  We have multiple factors that will likely contribute to the hypothetical ship being more expensive (upgrades, synergies and also filling a role that doesn't otherwise exist).  In this case, you could easily put a costing that would seem otherwise exorbitant and it would still see play.

 

Moving on to the redfins, high agility and low attack is their faction identity, 2 ATK/3 AGL practically grows on trees, so upgrades and pilot synergies have been carefully curated to not interact in any over the top ways.  The widespread availability of the statline making it a very competitive slot, combined with limited buffing interactions, would like necessitate the ship being cheaper than it may actually be worth in a vaccum just to make it even remotely viable.

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I should add: although I'm fine with Redfins and Bluecoats having different prices, that doesn't necessarily mean the Rebel A-Wing is correct.

Flip it around.  Suppose you could take Vectored Thrusters as an upgrade and gain a Boost (white or linked-red) for 4 points.  How many TIE/fo and Scyks take it?  Standard meta-list of 4 Cartel 2 Fang probably doesn't.  FOCHO clearly can't.  Kylo + Gang probably doesn't.  Sure, it gets stapled onto Muse and Midnight, maybe Null.  Quinn Jast with Boost and Advanced Proton Torpedoes would be sweet.  But most pilots?  Mostly they probably go without.

If it's a stand-alone upgrade, it's certainly worth 4 points, and would be a ****ing bargain on a lot of other ships.  And yet most M3-A and TIE/fo pilots wouldn't take it, particularly if it had to be equipped on every ship in the list.

Whatever we think the theoretical value of Vectored Thrusters is, generic A-Wings have worked out a lot worse for Rebels than TIE/fo for FO and Scyks for Scum.

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1 hour ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Guessing it got stalled with Covid happening and other things. I see no reason to push for its release atm unless either a new wave comes out, point changes happen, and/or organized play starts coming back.

Fair. Not like I've touched my stuff. Just started wanting the LAAT and HMP points/full spoils so I could try them on TTS if I was gonna play on there. But I know those got delayed along with everything else.

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5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Suppose you could take Vectored Thrusters as an upgrade and gain a Boost (white or linked-red) for 4 points.  How many TIE/fo and Scyks take it?

Every stinking one I put on the table. Especially linked>red boost.

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I should add: although I'm fine with Redfins and Bluecoats having different prices, that doesn't necessarily mean the Rebel A-Wing is correct.

Flip it around.  Suppose you could take Vectored Thrusters as an upgrade and gain a Boost (white or linked-red) for 4 points.  How many TIE/fo and Scyks take it?  Standard meta-list of 4 Cartel 2 Fang probably doesn't.  FOCHO clearly can't.  Kylo + Gang probably doesn't.  Sure, it gets stapled onto Muse and Midnight, maybe Null.  Quinn Jast with Boost and Advanced Proton Torpedoes would be sweet.  But most pilots?  Mostly they probably go without.

If it's a stand-alone upgrade, it's certainly worth 4 points, and would be a ****ing bargain on a lot of other ships.  And yet most M3-A and TIE/fo pilots wouldn't take it, particularly if it had to be equipped on every ship in the list.

Whatever we think the theoretical value of Vectored Thrusters is, generic A-Wings have worked out a lot worse for Rebels than TIE/fo for FO and Scyks for Scum.

 

I mean, yeah.  We can have all the theoretical discussions in the world, but if it's not winning anything, it doesn't matter how good it could/should be.  It's like when people talk about how a losing team has a lot of good players or a bad faction has good options.  If they can't win, clearly something is not working.

 

Part of the problem is probably that people assume you'll get crazy value for a generic having a linked boost and good dial, but it's a generic with 2 attack dice and 4 hp.  It's not your finisher, it's a filler ship, who cares if it goes faster while being a filler ship?

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Quad K-Wing got nerfed to oblivion.  Why?  A huge part of that was... yep... Barrage Rockets.  It's a bit strange, since they're by-and-large not as good as a standard 3-dice primary weapon....

I fully expect the Ks and barrage to make a comeback after some well-timed and thoroughly considered points drops on both in the future. 

They were about 12 metas too soon. 

They're in 2e and here to stay. Some people really enjoy both the ship and the ordinance, and I expect after the game has filled out a little more these things will find a happy home in the competitive scene. 

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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

It's not your finisher, it's a filler ship, who cares if it goes faster while being a filler ship?

I've probably missed something similar in my skimming, but I'd like to reiterate that RZ1s have a lot of utility for a filler.

They are a light interceptor, who can slap hard with Prockets at a reasonable price point. 

Hard to ignore a filler that can slap that hard. 

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Whatever we think the theoretical value of Vectored Thrusters is, generic A-Wings have worked out a lot worse for Rebels than TIE/fo for FO and Scyks for Scum.

Agreed. 

Not saying they're unusable by any means, but I do expect to see some new Rebel-only talents in the future that change the way we see RZ1s. 

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

M3-As aren't always filler and TIE/Fos don't have to be.

Okay. Fair. 

Both can have utility similar to the RZ1. 

Probably both broken with Vectored Thrusters, honestly. 

 

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