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13 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

So 8 points max currently (Ion cannon), 7 with HLC, 5 with Tractor, 2 for Jamming beam (VTG at it's cheapest was a 8 - 9 point upgrade (6 for bowtie primarys), it is now a 13 -15 point upgrade (10 for bowtie primaries)). In a faction with a cheap coordinate option that permits the coordinated ship to basically ignore being stressed for its action. On a platform where stress = easy mods for 2 out of the 3 limited pilots. 2 points is the dead minimum Stabilized S-Foils is worth.

 

You are comparing it to the wrong upgrade, it has a lot of restrictions that VTG doesn't.  It's more comparable to ordinance.  It requires a lock and you have to attack whatever you locked and cannot spend the lock, VTG lets you double tap whatever is in front regardless of whether you had an action or not and is easier to natively mod without a pilot ability.  You're glossing over some pretty substantial limitations to this card.

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19 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

You are comparing it to the wrong upgrade, it has a lot of restrictions that VTG doesn't.  It's more comparable to ordinance.  It requires a lock and you have to attack whatever you locked and cannot spend the lock, VTG lets you double tap whatever is in front regardless of whether you had an action or not and is easier to natively mod without a pilot ability.  You're glossing over some pretty substantial limitations to this card.

Maybe, though you seem to be ignoring some very potent enabling factors within the platform and the faction which have to be taken into account when pricing an upgrade (Braylen's rerolls still apply to both attacks for one, AP-5 exists for another). It also permits both Ten and Braylen to double mod offensively or defensively off a reposition even without a cannon equipped. If they do equip a torp (I'm not saying doing so is viable) they still have defensive mods even when reloading (Braylen against every attack coming his way).

Edited by Hiemfire

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6 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

@Brunas is something awry with your delightful advancedtargeting.computer? I feel like there are some big names missing from the data. Surely Soontir Fel can't be so obscure that he's being filtered out of ATC?

It's only hyperspace at the moment - like others have said, there's not really anything in hyperspace after March or so.  Kind of waiting to see what FFG is going to do to see where to go with it.

Edited by Brunas

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7 hours ago, Brunas said:

It's only hyperspace at the moment - like others have said, there's not really anything in hyperspace after March or so.  Kind of waiting to see what FFG is going to do to see where to go with it.

Fair enough. I feel like I knew this at some point and then forgot. I definitely don’t feel stupid for not noticing this before I asked, that’s for sure...

My only other suggestion would definitely be to add an option to sort by “more magic” or “less magic”. Any meta analysis tool worth its salt does this, and frankly I find it hard to take any stats seriously that don’t incorporate at least a minimal amount of magic.

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9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Legitimate question:  Are Stabilized S-Foils a 0pt upgrade?

I don't really think that's a useful question.  Not an inappropriate question, but one which really misses the forest for the trees.  To me, the most important things are the finished builds.

  • Is Ten Nunb with S-Foils but no Cannons a 48 or a 50 point ship?  I'd say 50, without question.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils but no cannons a 41 or a 43 point ship?  I'm inclined towards 41.
    • Probably for anyone but Ten Nunb, on a build without cannons, S-Foils would be fine at 0 points.  Braylen might get a little mileage out of Roll/Evade, but no big deal.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils, Autoblasters, and Passive Sensors a 47 or a 49 point ship?  I think I lean more towards 49.  I think it's enough better than a VTG/Dorsal Y-Wing that the 49 points is worth it.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils, Ion Cannon, and Passive Sensors a 50 or a 52 point ship?  I'm a little nervous about four double-tap Ion B-Wings.  Ion control, when paired with enough damage to matter, is rather good.

So.  Final price.  There are three points on this triangle.  Not ISO, Shutter Speed, and Aperture, but S-Foils Price, B-Wing Price, and Cannon Price.  What can be changed?

  • Suppose 0-point S-Foils. If I'm correct above, builds with double-tap cannons are, status quo, about fairly priced, so reducing the cost of S-Foils means they'd need to pay a bit more elsewhere.  But Cannon Prices can't be increased, since they're fair-to-overpriced on everyone else already.  However, raw B-Wing prices probably can't be increased, at least not the generics.  It'd be a massive nerf to non-cannon B-Wings which they really don't need.
    • Part of the reason this is bad: B-Wings don't come with the S-Foils.  HS&A has sometimes been hard for people to find.  The 1e way of essentially required upgrades from Aces Packs was bad for consumers.
  • Suppose non-zero S-Foils costs.  Builds with plain B-Wings are fairly priced.  Builds with S-Foils/Cannon builds are fairly priced.  Builds with S-Foils but no Cannons are overpriced, but based on your post, S-Foils without a Cannon isn't really worth anything outside of Ten Nunb.  So they aren't really missing anything if they just leave them off.

Putting this together: it's better for S-Foils to have a non-zero cost, although possibly only worth 0 points, because the difference in the power level between non-cannon and cannon-double-tap B-Wings is larger than the price of cannons, but cannon prices and B-Wing prices can't really be adjusted to make up the difference.

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7 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

You are comparing it to the wrong upgrade, it has a lot of restrictions that VTG doesn't.  It's more comparable to ordinance.  It requires a lock and you have to attack whatever you locked and cannot spend the lock, VTG lets you double tap whatever is in front regardless of whether you had an action or not and is easier to natively mod without a pilot ability.  You're glossing over some pretty substantial limitations to this card.

Cluster Missiles are 5 points.  S-Foils/Autoblasters is 5 points.  The B-Wing is a bit worse off in mods.  In attack dice, depends on range and bullseye, with the B-Wing having a lot higher potential (max 8 dice vs 6), but there is a lot of space at Range 2 no Bullseye where it'd be 5 vs 6 attack dice.  ABS has the out-of-arc uncancellable crit potential.  SSF/ABS has unlimited charges (Cluster only double-taps twice), plus the not-terrible bonus actions.  If Cluster Missiles granted a Roll -> Lock, that'd be pretty useful actually.

I'm fine with these both being the same 5 points.

Edited by theBitterFig

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11 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

-Both above actions have anti-synergy with Ten and Braylen because the Barrel Roll is first, so you can't just fail into the stress, which is probably intentional, but also holds it back with the two best pilots

Ten has great synergy with the foil. Roll into stressful lock is essentially lock + focus. Braylen less so, but if Braylen needs to take a turn not shooting but still taking shots, he can get stress and an evade ensuring he's taking as minimal damage as possible.

Overall, I agree is isn't worth 2 points, but on Ten specifically it definitely is.

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1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

Ten has great synergy with the foil. Roll into stressful lock is essentially lock + focus. Braylen less so, but if Braylen needs to take a turn not shooting but still taking shots, he can get stress and an evade ensuring he's taking as minimal damage as possible.

Overall, I agree is isn't worth 2 points, but on Ten specifically it definitely is.

 

Yeah, but that could be changed with Ten

 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Cluster Missiles are 5 points.  S-Foils/Autoblasters is 5 points.  The B-Wing is a bit worse off in mods.  In attack dice, depends on range and bullseye, with the B-Wing having a lot higher potential (max 8 dice vs 6), but there is a lot of space at Range 2 no Bullseye where it'd be 5 vs 6 attack dice.  ABS has the out-of-arc uncancellable crit potential.  SSF/ABS has unlimited charges (Cluster only double-taps twice), plus the not-terrible bonus actions.  If Cluster Missiles granted a Roll -> Lock, that'd be pretty useful actually.

I'm fine with these both being the same 5 points.

 

This is kind of what I arrived at...but then I also looked at how little use Cluster Missiles has seen in all of 2.0 and wonder if they're actually correct at 5pts.  It's hard to say, ordinance is weird because it varies in value a lot both based on initiative and dice modifications (a single modded Protorp worth way less than a double modded and a high initiative double modded obviously is very valuable).  At a minimum, I think we can at least agree Clusters aren't world beating at their current costing.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't really think that's a useful question.  Not an inappropriate question, but one which really misses the forest for the trees.  To me, the most important things are the finished builds.

  • Is Ten Nunb with S-Foils but no Cannons a 48 or a 50 point ship?  I'd say 50, without question.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils but no cannons a 41 or a 43 point ship?  I'm inclined towards 41.
    • Probably for anyone but Ten Nunb, on a build without cannons, S-Foils would be fine at 0 points.  Braylen might get a little mileage out of Roll/Evade, but no big deal.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils, Autoblasters, and Passive Sensors a 47 or a 49 point ship?  I think I lean more towards 49.  I think it's enough better than a VTG/Dorsal Y-Wing that the 49 points is worth it.
  • Is a Blue Squadron Pilot with S-Foils, Ion Cannon, and Passive Sensors a 50 or a 52 point ship?  I'm a little nervous about four double-tap Ion B-Wings.  Ion control, when paired with enough damage to matter, is rather good.

So.  Final price.  There are three points on this triangle.  Not ISO, Shutter Speed, and Aperture, but S-Foils Price, B-Wing Price, and Cannon Price.  What can be changed?

  • Suppose 0-point S-Foils. If I'm correct above, builds with double-tap cannons are, status quo, about fairly priced, so reducing the cost of S-Foils means they'd need to pay a bit more elsewhere.  But Cannon Prices can't be increased, since they're fair-to-overpriced on everyone else already.  However, raw B-Wing prices probably can't be increased, at least not the generics.  It'd be a massive nerf to non-cannon B-Wings which they really don't need.
    • Part of the reason this is bad: B-Wings don't come with the S-Foils.  HS&A has sometimes been hard for people to find.  The 1e way of essentially required upgrades from Aces Packs was bad for consumers.
  • Suppose non-zero S-Foils costs.  Builds with plain B-Wings are fairly priced.  Builds with S-Foils/Cannon builds are fairly priced.  Builds with S-Foils but no Cannons are overpriced, but based on your post, S-Foils without a Cannon isn't really worth anything outside of Ten Nunb.  So they aren't really missing anything if they just leave them off.

Putting this together: it's better for S-Foils to have a non-zero cost, although possibly only worth 0 points, because the difference in the power level between non-cannon and cannon-double-tap B-Wings is larger than the price of cannons, but cannon prices and B-Wing prices can't really be adjusted to make up the difference.

 

I somewhat agree in principle, but I've been trying to break down the value as I go and it's basically boiled down to:

-S-Foils alone is only useful on Ten.  For all other pilots, the situations where it is observably better than not having it is too low to be worth more than 0pts (maybe 1 on a real stretch, but I wasn't even it once per game on average)

-S-Foils + Autoblaster is always worth it on Braylen, or more accurately, if you pay for it and get the setup, you would never not do it (and it's generally worth it's points).  The ability to mod every roll regardless of how many, just makes Braylen an obvious choice for anything that makes multiple attacks and he gets the greatest consistency with the lowest investment of effort or other pieces.  He's also the most expensive B-Wing pilot and gets very little out of S-Foils natively (he generally prefers focus-> roll both because it combos better with his rerolls and he can fail the roll and still get everything he needs unlike with roll -> lock).  So the best pilot for the combo is also pretty ambivalent about S-Foils on their own (I guess if you're in extended and bully on the idea of getting that jamming beam shot, but I've never used Jamming beams even when playing it in extended and having to fire the jamming beam after your modded primary also makes it pretty questionable in value).

-S-Foils and auto on Ten is more situational, but still generally good.  A single mod shot and a no mod shot are usually, but not always better than one double modded shot.  I have found that it's way better to just take the double mod on targets at low HP that you just want to finish off and go for the full string.  I've also foregone the primary shot a few times to use the lock on an autoblaster for a token stacked ace or a ship I want to finish off behind a gas cloud when Ten isn't in their arc just for the unblockable crit.  Those are in the minority, but it is noteworthy that Ten has a higher tendency to not use the feature even when it's available over Braylen.

-I've never gotten any value out of S-Foils alone on generics or Gina.  Focus -> Roll is just good and flexible and you don't lose your mods if you fail the reposition.

-The value I've gotten off S-Foil + Autoblaster on generics or Gina is...questionable.  It's hard to side-by-side, but it was pretty rare to really experience a demonstrable increase in damage vs just a single mod shot.  The setup has also been tedious even on higher initiative pilots and, like ordinance is hard to use effectively against aces.

 

And that's kind of the reason why I'm looking at "should this be zero" with the possible adjustment to Ten and/or Braylen.  I do get that FFG might be reluctant to make a zero point upgrade that doesn't come with the ship.

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14 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

-The value I've gotten off S-Foil + Autoblaster on generics or Gina is...questionable.  It's hard to side-by-side, but it was pretty rare to really experience a demonstrable increase in damage vs just a single mod shot.  The setup has also been tedious even on higher initiative pilots and, like ordinance is hard to use effectively against aces.

At least to me, when I look at the math, it's still worth it.  Not necessarily a huge benefit, enough of one.  Double-tap with Ion is more damage than a single mod, plus ion effects.  Double-tap with Autoblasters is about comparable damage to Advanced Optics without Bullseye, better with Bullseye.  Locks are harder than focus, but I still think it's worth trusting the damage calc and the stats, and even if it doesn't always feel effective, odds are it is.

27 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

And that's kind of the reason why I'm looking at "should this be zero" with the possible adjustment to Ten and/or Braylen.  I do get that FFG might be reluctant to make a zero point upgrade that doesn't come with the ship.

I'm sure I'd love to test out 4 Ion Blues, and it probably wouldn't be the end of the world in terms of balance.

Still, I'd rather not see it.  At the risk of getting into a three page argument over whether or not it's technically a correct use of the term "power creep," it still feels inflationary to me in a bad way.  Just a preference. 

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14 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Both above actions have anti-synergy with Ten and Braylen because the Barrel Roll is first, so you can't just fail into the stress, which is probably intentional

that and nobody needs passive sensors b-wings repositioning during the engagement phase

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2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

At least to me, when I look at the math, it's still worth it.  Not necessarily a huge benefit, enough of one.  Double-tap with Ion is more damage than a single mod, plus ion effects.  Double-tap with Autoblasters is about comparable damage to Advanced Optics without Bullseye, better with Bullseye.  Locks are harder than focus, but I still think it's worth trusting the damage calc and the stats, and even if it doesn't always feel effective, odds are it is.

I'm sure I'd love to test out 4 Ion Blues, and it probably wouldn't be the end of the world in terms of balance.

Still, I'd rather not see it.  At the risk of getting into a three page argument over whether or not it's technically a correct use of the term "power creep," it still feels inflationary to me in a bad way.  Just a preference. 

 

That's pretty reasonable

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19 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

So last season of hyperspace was kind of limited, but was there ever a consensus on 5x T-65s?  Legit, meme, gatekeeper, amazing, something else altogether?

“Just a list” if thats a category. Decent if played by someone who remembers t65s can boost. 

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should the rz1 a-wing be given a barrage rockets slot? discuss

pros: a-wings are cool (at least the ones that shoot forwards), 37pts for a barrage-wing vs 39pts for an x-wing feels like a real decision, the people who complain about video game a-wings spamming missiles or whatever are maybe happy idk

cons: even though I think the inverted range pyramid is interesting last time we did barrage meta it made people mad, jake would maybe need to go up in price a little

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6 minutes ago, svelok said:

should the rz1 a-wing be given a barrage rockets slot? discuss

pros: a-wings are cool (at least the ones that shoot forwards), 37pts for a barrage-wing vs 39pts for an x-wing feels like a real decision, the people who complain about video game a-wings spamming missiles or whatever are maybe happy idk

cons: even though I think the inverted range pyramid is interesting last time we did barrage meta it made people mad, jake would maybe need to go up in price a little

Weren't you on the anti-barrage rocket Scyk bandwagon not long ago?

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Lets see. Barrage Rz-1s...

Lets start with the upgrade: latest?cb=20180914172603

Vs 3 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 2 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 1 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 3 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Vs 2 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Vs 1 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Dial and basic ship card for reference:

Maneuver a-winglatest?cb=20180914000309

No thanks...

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5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Lets see. Barrage Rz-1s...

Lets start with the upgrade: latest?cb=20180914172603

Vs 3 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 2 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 1 Green with Focus against target in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAUAAAAA

Vs 3 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Vs 2 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=ggAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Vs 1 Green with Focus against target not in bullseye: http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi/?d=gQAAAAAAAAAA&a1=MQgAAAAAAAAA

Dial and basic ship card for reference:

Maneuver a-winglatest?cb=20180914000309

No thanks...

Still worse than RZ2s

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3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

That's more of a statement on how broken RZ-2s are, incoming Green Dragoon, than if Barrage RZ-1s is a good idea, in my opinion it isn't.

Yeah, they’ve been dominating since...uh...well, they’ve been good before 

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Part of what makes Phantoms strong is that the decloak allows them to clear obstacles entirely, keeping their position unpredictable. Could a rule change subtly nerf them by making the decloak use the 1 straight instead of the 2? Side benefit: Decloak rules are simplified becuase the decloak boost/roll is exactly the same as a regular boost/roll for every ship.

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