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Posted (edited)

2pt bombass upgrades:

Daredevil on Nien, TIE/ba, or on a primed Bastian for the lols.

Fanatical on FO 3 dice guns or double taps.

Proud Trad on spammable FO that want to point their front arcs at the target.

FCS on things that are wont to take locks as a means of saving action efficiency (TIE X1, TIE V1, E Wing). Also useful if that chassis has a double tap (Corran, Quickdraw, etc.)

Grappling struts for droids because it wouldn't surprise me if they were 2 pt apiece.

CLT at I3. Dudes, Jedi Knights are good! They got dmg consistency when they catch something bullseyes all lined up.

Electronic Baffle in niche cases. Allows a slooping Vermiel to sustain aggro for a turn and shuttles to camp.

1 Slave 1 title and 1 extra pt bid to use it.

Tactical Scrambler for blockers: Bumpmasters, K2SO, Reapers, ARCs

Hull upgrade for Decimator and VCX

Predator for lower-bid Soontirs, Sun Fac, Recoil, Talonbane or other natively single-mod ships when solo that really benefit from full mods and can attain bullseye reliably.

 

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

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23 minutes ago, RStan said:

Page 2, what is this? 

With most of the world locked down and most of us working remotely if able, are you planning on playing more or less XWing? Vassal and TTS might offer more, but LGS's likely also being a bit more restrictive, maybe less? 

I just downloaded Vassal this morning and signed up to a league... cross your fingers!

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On 3/13/2020 at 5:42 AM, RStan said:

The card is a bit of a trap on upgrade investment. 

Should you put this on all BWings...No.

Should you put this on Ten Numb...Yes.

Should you put cannon upgrades on every BWing equipped with SFoils...No.

Are any of the BWing pilots with SFoils worth putting any cannon on them...IDK yet, but it hasn't shown a good return on investment yet. 

I've found it to be worth it on Ten and Braylen. Ten should have it stapled to his face, as roll into red lock, essentially makes him Braylen without defensive rolls. Braylen with foils and an Ion Cannon is solid, as you can either do his normal focus -> stress roll, or you can roll -> stress lock for a single modded-double tap. But honestly Braylen is fine without.

Gina and the no-names can probably do without, until at least until we see what the cannon from the HMP Gunship is. The best investment on Gina currently is FCS. Adv Sensors on her would be solid if it wasn't so expensive. Currently, I don't foils as worth on anything other than the two established powerhouses until a worthy cannon comes along.

Perhaps if they made straight damage cannon, but it is a double cannon slot (similar to barrage rockets double missile slot); It'd be useless on anything but double-tap B's or IG's unless it is a 4 die cannon.

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1 hour ago, RStan said:

Page 2, what is this? 

With most of the world locked down and most of us working remotely if able, are you planning on playing more or less XWing? Vassal and TTS might offer more, but LGS's likely also being a bit more restrictive, maybe less? 

Honestly, I'm a bit concerned. I've read that some organize their store champs online. That seems like a step too far and might make it harder for FFG and higher to turn a blind eye to the online gaming community.

Organize as many events as you want, but not those with official prize support

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Posted (edited)

Also, it is incredibly frustrating how people are completely misjudging this.

E.g. just above me

4 hours ago, Rich P said:

If I am not in quarantine, then I will be going to my FLGS to play to support them in staying open as best I can. I don't have a device capable of vassal/TTS so otherwise I'll be playing at home if I end up in Quarantine.

Seriously, don't. That is dangerous. There is so much information available by now. The most impressive might be the obituaries in an italian newspaper comparing February 9th and now few days ago. It jumped from 1,5 pages to 10 pages.

And still people like you think they should go out and spend hours in close proximity to push plastic toys over the table?! The UK facebook page with all their store champs has to be the most infuriating and frustrating thing I've seen in a long time. I'm swiss. Nobody here took it serious enough. Check our daily growth: (source: http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/)

covid-eu-lom.png

UK is just a bit behind, so they would have time to react. But it looks like at least the Xwing community does not want to learn from other's mistakes

covid-eu-norm.png

FFS, stay at home!

Edited by GreenDragoon
source

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Also, it is incredibly frustrating how people are completely misjudging this.

Could not agree more. I've seen some organizers cancel, but others indicate that they will proceed but encourage hand washing, send people home if they show symptoms, etc. Just a fundamental misunderstanding of why self-isolation and social distancing is happening to begin with.

I'm staying home and working with our local group to keep people connected through VASSAL/TTS. I love those FO dials and damage decks more than a person should, but I love my community's healthcare system more.

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Posted (edited)

Nice bunch of assumptions to make there my dude. But I guess I should listen to 'guy off the internet' who has some graphs

Or - 'I'm listening to Government advice led by the chief science officer'?

Sorry if I don't take your guidance, I am more than aware of the risks, I am also pretty sure that most small enterprises are going to fold from this, and I'd love to try to help the owners of those businesses survive beyond the next 6-9 months if I can.

 

Edited by Rich P

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Hey, as a random guy off the internet, I could just tell you that I have been infected, cured and am now immune. *shrug* just as likely to be true as 90% of other stuff you read in this thread.

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10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Also, it is incredibly frustrating how people are completely misjudging this.

E.g. just above me

Seriously, don't. That is dangerous. There is so much information available by now. The most impressive might be the obituaries in an italian newspaper comparing February 9th and now few days ago. It jumped from 1,5 pages to 10 pages.

And still people like you think they should go out and spend hours in close proximity to push plastic toys over the table?! The UK facebook page with all their store champs has to be the most infuriating and frustrating thing I've seen in a long time. I'm swiss. Nobody here took it serious enough. Check our daily growth:

covid-eu-lom.png

UK is just a bit behind, so they would have time to react. But it looks like at least the Xwing community does not want to learn from other's mistakes

covid-eu-norm.png

FFS, stay at home!

 

People want normalcy, I get that, but not treating it as a threat is why it exploded in Italy, South Korea and China.  The argument that continues to baffle me is the "only 1-2% of the population" one.  Like, in the US alone, that's still 3-6 million, even half of the US is 1.5-3 million.  I'm stuck with the assumption that people just can't do math because the alternative is that they're just A-holes.

 

Anyways, on the relaxing topic of toy space ships, I'd agree that I don't really think S-Foils find any value on normal B's or Gina.  On those ships with a cannon, they're basically cluster missiles with infinite charges, but where you have to spend the lock and who uses cluster missiles?  Braylen gets a lot of Foils + Cannon just because it lets his pilot ability get even more value, at least in my opinion and experience.

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On 3/14/2020 at 8:56 AM, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

2pt bombass upgrades:

Daredevil on Nien, TIE/ba, or on a primed Bastian for the lols.

Fanatical on FO 3 dice guns or double taps.

Proud Trad on spammable FO that want to point their front arcs at the target.

FCS on things that are wont to take locks as a means of saving action efficiency (TIE X1, TIE V1, E Wing). Also useful if that chassis has a double tap (Corran, Quickdraw, etc.)

Grappling struts for droids because it wouldn't surprise me if they were 2 pt apiece.

CLT at I3. Dudes, Jedi Knights are good! They got dmg consistency when they catch something bullseyes all lined up.

Electronic Baffle in niche cases. Allows a slooping Vermiel to sustain aggro for a turn and shuttles to camp.

1 Slave 1 title and 1 extra pt bid to use it.

Tactical Scrambler for blockers: Bumpmasters, K2SO, Reapers, ARCs

Hull upgrade for Decimator and VCX

Predator for lower-bid Soontirs, Sun Fac, Recoil, Talonbane or other natively single-mod ships when solo that really benefit from full mods and can attain bullseye reliably.

 

I will continue to shout from the heavens how good/fun proud is. Especially muse and longshot

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Why Longshot specifically? Is there a synergy I'm missing?

Longshot is dope to begin with as a cheap 3 dice FO. One of my favorites. 

PT lets you sloop for occasional R1 shots since it doesnt go far or K-Turn for what is likely a chip R3 shot because most ships move away from you when you kturn anyway. 

Its not really anything specific so much as you never put PT on Scorch. That leaves Omegas and Longshot and occasionally Muse as the primary carrier besides Holo/France. 

 

In summary Longshot is super awesome and I wish he had a cool alt art / dial. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Rich P said:

Nice bunch of assumptions to make there my dude. But I guess I should listen to 'guy off the internet' who has some graphs

Or - 'I'm listening to Government advice led by the chief science officer'?

Sorry if I don't take your guidance, I am more than aware of the risks, I am also pretty sure that most small enterprises are going to fold from this, and I'd love to try to help the owners of those businesses survive beyond the next 6-9 months if I can.

 

Ffs those graphs use who data. And your chief science officer is wrong.

Our government in this very second told us that risk group have to stay home. Homeoffice if possible, no work if it is not possible, and wages have to be paid.

They slept on it and we had the highest growth rate at almost 36% daily. The Uk is sleeping on it, too. Your post will age like milk, and I hope you will feel ashamed of yourself if you keep going to stores.

I am furious because this **** is important. Holy **** educate yourself

e: they just mobilized 8000 soldiers. To put that into context, it's 12% of all our forces and the largest mobilization since ww2. I hope that you all learn from our mistakes. But then again, I'm just a 'guy off the internet'.

 

edit 2hours later: this just in "Coronavirus: PM says everyone should avoid office, pubs and travelling"
I hope all the xwing players that had their storechamps against better knowledge, insisting that they were following official guidelines, feel ashamed. You could have known and you were told. I've seen discussions on facebook. Everyone knows if they did when you read this.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Why Longshot specifically? Is there a synergy I'm missing?

The amount of time you're getting thier ability goes up dramatically when you can turn around all the time for little consequences. Longshot was in a rough spot before, i often found that after the opening engage, the ability was only proccing on the turns when i did a k turn or sloop, so shooting the extra die was kind of lackluster. Now that i can mod on the turns i'm getting the extra die, the usefulness of the ability goes up, making longshot a value.

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2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Why Longshot specifically? Is there a synergy I'm missing?

4k can trigger the ability a suprising amount. Since he's not always rolling 3 dice like Scorch or a Silencer, fanatical is weak on him. At I3, the target's token is probably spent, which means triggering False Trad is a trap. Which then means he can perform any basic maneuver on his dial next turn and still focus, such as  flooring it (often through debris clouds).

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ffs those graphs use who data. And your chief science officer is wrong.

Our government in this very second told us that we all have to stay home. Homeoffice if possible, no work if it is not possible, and wages have to be paid.

They slept on it and we had the highest growth rate at almost 36% daily. The Uk is sleeping on it, too. Your post will age like milk, and I hope you will feel ashamed of yourself if you keep going to stores.

I am furious because this **** is important. Holy **** educate yourself

e: they just mobilized 8000 soldiers. To put that into context, it's 12% of all our forces and the largest mobilization since ww2. I hope that you all learn from our mistakes. But then again, I'm just a 'guy off the internet'.

Yup, here in Spain the Government looked at Italy over the shoulder, and did nothing about it. We now fear they’ve wasted too much precious time, our rates are even scarier than Italy’s...

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Didnt get any responses in the other thread so ill post it in the real thread. 

What are the non-list building answers to CIS Swarms? 

In Game Tactics vs CIS Swarms

Another counter strategy ramble. As usual quantity of words does not indicate quality of content, havent even re-read this. This is just to kick start a in game tactics discussion. I have played against CIS more than I have actually played it myself, so be skeptical of everything below. Strategy is probably not all together that different than how you should be fighting any swarm with a few exceptions related to obstacles. I personally greatly enjoy games against Swarms and CIS Swarm is no different for me. So many different archetypes/lists have legit win conditions from start to finish. There is a real in game puzzle to solve against swarms which makes it fun. It also doesnt require specific tech or init bands to deal with which again means there is probably alot to discuss here that isnt listed below. 

  • What The List Does: 
    • Usually Includes the following: 
      • 1-2 Ordinance Hyenas ( Plasma Torps or Concussion Missiles ) 
      • 2-3 Discord Missiles 
      • 7-8 Ships most with struts 
    • Covers large areas of the board with both arcs and discord missiles
    • White and Blue Hard Turns easily threaten flankers 
    • Able to move through, on to, and roll off obstacles 
    • Networked functions like action based force charges for the entire list 
    • K-Turns/Talons with mods thanks to networked 
    • Uses struts and Calcs + Red Barrel Rolls to adjust arc coverage and basically pivot   
    • Stacks Multiple Target Locks via Probes to scare things off or set up mid game alpha strikes 
       
  • How it Deploys: 
    • Typically in a corner set up to move along a board edge or chill for a round or two 
    • Hugs the opponents side of the board or the left or ride side of the board until ready to turn in
    • Not unusual to see the swarm "split" into two loose pairs of 3-4
    • However it will absolutely keep things close enough for networked to function for all ships 
    • Occasionally will see it open with talons/k turns 
    • Tends not to engage in strict block formation, though it certainly can joust that way 
    • Uses barrel roll to keep the board open and the arc coverage as wide as possible 
    • Tends to place Ordinance Carriers behind outside of blockable range
    • Tends to deploy Discord Missile Carriers out front 
       
  • Counter Strategy
    • Accept that your going to lose some ships, build a strategy that assumes that 
      • Set Up 2:1 Trades.
      • Avoid 1:1 Trades. This should be obvious but I think for some reason its not?
      • Don't Avoid Combat to much and create awkward board states for yourself 
      • Losing a ship does not mean you lost the game, its how you trade that matters. 
      • Vast majority of the "fine tier" lists in hyperspace have reasonable win conditions after a 2:1 trade with a CIS swarm.
      • Very much a 50/50 or better after the 2:1 especially if your conscious of preferred board position after the 1st engage 
      • Even if you lose your "primary" end game piece the rest of your list can absolutely still win you games because Init Kills are brutal 
      • Trouble is to destroy to Vultures you actually have to commit to combat which can feel alot worse than it is 
      • Every extra turn your ships get matters, even if its on only 1 hull.
      • This game is all about setting controlling and enforcing the pace of the Init Kill Countdown Clock 
    • Approaching the "loose wall formation"
      • For the below, obviously rocks matter but for simplicity going to assume they "exist" but the angles are still possible 
      • Usually want to approach from at least two-three angles 
        • If they move their entire swarm into the center of the board you can create awkward first engages 
        • Mainly because one of the flanks is more likely to be roughly behind the swarm ( i.e. actually flanking ) 
          • k3opoCV.png
        • The center of the board also includes them walking up the left or ride side of the board and turning in 
        • Make the Swarm player choose a flank to collapse on,
        • Make absolutely sure whatever side they don't collapse on is in a position to do meaningful damage 
        • Generally you should plan to commit to attacking from both flanks, remember most lists actually need to fight
        • If you can do so with bail out options open but its not always possible, and not always necessary 
      • If they set up in a corner, you can still attack from more than one angle
        • This is better for the CIS player as they can more easily turn back in on either flank 
        • After they choose a flank to target first engage, the entire swarm can hard turn back in on the other pair if it needs to 
        • How far to their flank you are matters a great deal
        • The closer your flank pairs are the better their 1-2 turn options after the first engage 
        • The further apart your flank pairs are the the more likely it is you fail to take shots entirely
        • Thats on you to avoid by moving quickly enough Turn 0-3 
          • mQHGyeP.png
      • Its usually not as clean as the above two images, CIS swarms engage messy 
        • Typically looks more like this 
          • 6DmM8hF.png
        • Flexible but it can also create very awkward engagements once your ships get close
        • Its not uncommon for them struggle to get more than 3-4 shots on target 
        • If one of their vultures self bumps, thats one less calc 
        • If you bump into one of their ships thats one less shot, and you probably have passive mods anyway
        • If you init kill a vulture thats another shot that wont happen 
        • Suddenly they are only actually allowed 2-3 shots instead of 4 
        • Its possible to "empty" the list of its Calculate tokens before it fires back 
          • This isnt something you do intentionally, kinda happens naturally
          • Provided your actually applying offensive pressure and focusing fire 
        • Don't over assume that your list will lose the straight joust, flanking isnt the only option.
          • 2:1 Trades are available via a partial engage + r1 double tap init kill 
          • Get to Range 1 during the mid game puts a ton of pressure on the init kill countdown clock 
          • You don't have to try to dodge all of the arcs 
          • Getting blocked isn't the end of the world, it can still mean 1 less shot in followed by an init kill. 
    • Other Stuff
      • Probably alot more to say on all three of these topics
      • Obstacles and Struts
        • Gas Clouds can be your friend here, dishing strain and denying struts/calculates 
          • Position your clouds in areas you think will be relevant to the first and second rounds of combat. 
          • R3 of corners is usually a simplistic way to do that 
        • Funneling the entire CIS swarm between rocks helps less than it does against other swarms 
        • Barrel rolling off rocks leads to some strange board states
        • Struts allows the vultures to trade up better and function like mini uwings
        • Struts can sometimes be a liability as it requires specific speeds to move off the rock which is info you can use 
      • Probes 
        • Its very rare that you will have a chance to shoot a probe before it can set a lock 
        • Its more common that you can force the CIS player to choose between taking locks and taking calculates 
        • They will choose calculates unless part of their list is expected to be out of arc and can just function as a calc battery 
      • Discord Missiles 
        • These cause absolute mayhem with all the engagements above and allow CIS to keep up with the damage race 
        • Obviously barrel roll is a good way to get out of this, but once again committing to setting up good flanks is key to. 
        • If you somehow end up with Discord Missiles attached to more than one ship something went pretty wrong 

Summary: 

  • Don't Offer a Trade Treaty that the CIS player will sign 
    • 429d85aa3eefe4894f83153ef9c875c7862fed1a
  • At minimum offer 2:1 Trade Deals   
    • 88b.jpg

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This is a really good analysis. The part I would add is that you really want to avoid having to trade with vultures/hyenas at range 3. Networked calculations makes the jump to 3 green dice a dramatic improvement in durability for them. At range 3 with decent quality shots (3 reds + focus),  you're going to struggle to even kill one vulture reliably with even a pure joust list - 5 X-Wings all hitting a vulture swarm at R3 is only about 62% to kill 1 vulture (ignoring crit effects). At range 2, that jumps to a decent chance to kill 2 vultures (roughly 46% to deal 6+ damage, ignores crit effects or wasting expected damage into overkilling 1st vulture). Ideally, you're hitting the 1-2 vultures you intend to kill at range 2 while the bulk of the swarm is at r3/out of arc. Depending on your offense, you might need to play the initial round more conservatively and then make your trade on round 2 of combat with an R1 exchange where you are at very good odds to trade 2:1.

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8 hours ago, Rich P said:

Nice bunch of assumptions to make there my dude. But I guess I should listen to 'guy off the internet' who has some graphs

Or - 'I'm listening to Government advice led by the chief science officer'?

Sorry if I don't take your guidance, I am more than aware of the risks, I am also pretty sure that most small enterprises are going to fold from this, and I'd love to try to help the owners of those businesses survive beyond the next 6-9 months if I can.

 

Pretty sure your government is telling you to stay at home if possible and avoid any non-essential trips. Wanna bet? ;) 

If you want to support your FLGS  - call them, order some coupons now so you can shop later when the crisis is over. Or ask them if they will ship orders now. That's what our local store is doing. Game room and tables are absolutely closed to protect to the community.

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