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I feel like FFG might be in a similar situation (regarding hyperspace vs extended) as I am reffing a game. You make a call and you have to stick with it.  If you give in, everyone now thinks if they protest enough, they can get a call changed. It opens up a whole nother can of worms. 

Of course this isn't a perfect analogy, but hopefully you get my point.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Tsavong said:

If you give in, everyone now thinks if they protest enough, they can get a call changed.

I mean reddit unironically did that when FFG responded to their demands, expanded the card pool, and added soontir back to hyperspace last year.

Protests will continue until the correct format wins.

Edited by Boom Owl

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Gross. no. Worlds is best of the best. And that's extended. You already get a large majority of the competitive events on HS. Stop telling people they have to play these certain sets of ships and only use these certain sets of upgrades. 

Theres nothing wrong with Extended and frankly the lack of people really being able to explain what extended meta and its boogeymen even are just says how much its a knee jerk ew I don't want to have to think about aces, let me faceroll and pray. 

Why is extended assumed to be "the best of the best?"

All is it is "every ship". 

As for bogeyman... we quite literally listed: 7b, soontir, phantoms/whisper, adv sensors (mainly guri, but it's just waiting for new tricks or pilot reductions... *eyes redline*).

That's literally just an immediate, quick statement. The 'issue' people have is that so far, most of extended has devolved into 1) combo list building, 2) super aces, and/or 3) large power gap differentials, where people functionally lose at list building more often.

All of these take away from the core idea that everyone is playing the same game - a game of moving around and out thinking your opponent on the board. The issue is, not "everyone" agrees. That's fine, but at no point will you even get agreement that extended is "the best of the best"

 

 

Edit: also, FWIW (and it's not the main point, but worth correcting): a "large majority of competitive events" are not hyperspace, they're extended. It's just system opens and store championships, and SC's are not competitive events. And even for those, the second wave will be allowed to be extended. 

Extended "won" for all intents and purposes.

Edited by Tlfj200

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Posted (edited)

Understandably, Snap was Snapped out of existence with the Composure nerf. "Mr. Poe, I dont feel too good." But has anyone tried spare parts canisters on him? Boosting in front of an ace (especially Fenn or Vonreg) and then ******** out a mini debris cloud seems significantly better than that trick on most spare parts carriers. I know 60 pt with heroic might seem a bit pricey, but it seems decent. A fanatical optic FOTP is great value at 62 and "only" I4. So maybe there might be something in trading a bit of shot accuracy for an anti-ace trick?

Heck, even the boost at I4, and then focus linked br to line up a bullseye does not seem bad at all. Yeet stress with the R4 equipped for spare parts to better increase the turn radius. Daredevil + Primed (an expensively bad idea, but loads of fun, especially with the pilot ability) can turn you into hyperspace Nien Numb, especially if Holdo is nearby. Make that silly mobile with Black 1.

Just as Maarek now adapts by doubling down on Palp, coordinate, or staying as lean as possible, I'm sure Snap can survive the composure nerf with adapting. The R4 and canisters might not be as mobile of an ace hunter as Vagabond with clusters, but he can deal reliable damage and hang around for a bit.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

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1 hour ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I'm sure Snap can survive the composure nerf with adapting.

In Hyperspace sure, because the game is narrow enough and table-centric enough for that. But the question is: why would you choose him over an alternative?

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I really do think y'all have some severe 1.0-itis.

Nothing in X-Wing 2.0 is decided outside dials and dice. Hyperspace is purer, but Extended is actually a really good game. Especially now.

I think it's probably important to understand that while some may only like to fly generic X Wings against generic TIE SF, and flex that pure skill, I respect that, but it is, and will only ever be, a very minority view. It will not be the way.

Similarly the opposite, where some only want to fly broken combo lists and auto win, like the good old days... (good news, I think most of those have quit X Wing by now)

The fear that 2.0 Extended will descend into 1.0ism is real, and I share it, but it's not there yet.

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8 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I really do think y'all have some severe 1.0-itis.

Nothing in X-Wing 2.0 is decided outside dials and dice. Hyperspace is purer, but Extended is actually a really good game. Especially now.

I think it's probably important to understand that while some may only like to fly generic X Wings against generic TIE SF, and flex that pure skill, I respect that, but it is, and will only ever be, a very minority view. It will not be the way.

Similarly the opposite, where some only want to fly broken combo lists and auto win, like the good old days... (good news, I think most of those have quit X Wing by now)

The fear that 2.0 Extended will descend into 1.0ism is real, and I share it, but it's not there yet.

Exactly this. 

 

This whole craze over hyperspace purity is unreal. I mean, sure, make most of the of the tournaments hyperspace, fine. But mess with Worlds? I will be very irate.

I want to see all the possibilities and I don't accept people telling me I only get to play with HS curation. Not only that, but I severely detest and have always been against rotating formats for the purpose of having to buy new stuff. People might be happy with how HS works now, but eventually you'll get tired of, it, you'll want to play with ships that aren't allowed, you'll want to know that pieces that aren't yet rotated into hyperspace are actually balanced, and the game is really balanced in all of its parts, which I think Extended is getting exceptionally close to.

The whole spiels about crazy boogeymen in Extended is ridiculous. All I see is "waah aces" and I know this from 4 years of 1.0 Xwing in building lists that HAD to fight aces, I've won games with aces, and I've lost games with aces, and I've built entire strategies around beating aces. Like seriously, Whisper? Yeah she's a good piece. No she's not even close to broken af. You're complaining about Whisper of all things?? 

The fallacy that a smaller choice set makes less stratification is ridiculous. Less choices also mean less possibility of being able to work against something that truly is dominant. All one has to see is Magic Standard which generally is dominated by 5 or so lists in each Standard ofr the last 20 years. You can also look at Wings of Liberty Starcraft 2, which considerably less choices than modern Starcraft 2. You can look at Wave 4 1.0 Xwing, or Wave8 1.0, compared to wave 12 (or whatever we ended on). 

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I'm starting to think that FFG can't foresee the jank that players will find in even a limited cardset, and so hyperspace will always, and quickly distil down into a 2-3 list race. Just as extended does. Right now, it's looking like Boba & friends / Separatist swarm  if you want to succeed at store champs. I can't see the meta getting more diverse than that at larger tournaments. I'm waiting with interest the later SoS list fortress entries, but I'm kinda convinced that we have found the power lists for HS now, you either get on board, or jump off until the next adjustment. 

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1 hour ago, Rich P said:

I'm starting to think that FFG can't foresee the jank that players will find in even a limited cardset, and so hyperspace will always, and quickly distil down into a 2-3 list race. Just as extended does. Right now, it's looking like Boba & friends / Separatist swarm  if you want to succeed at store champs. I can't see the meta getting more diverse than that at larger tournaments. I'm waiting with interest the later SoS list fortress entries, but I'm kinda convinced that we have found the power lists for HS now, you either get on board, or jump off until the next adjustment. 

Anything can win a Store Champ. If you're going to a Store Champ, it's heavy "do what you want man." Now System Opens, sure you should highly consider running meta staples or at minimum have a plan against them. 

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9 minutes ago, RStan said:

Anything can win a Store Champ. If you're going to a Store Champ, it's heavy "do what you want man."

Oh - I wish that were true ... here is my store champs ... https://listfortress.com/tournaments/1677 Anything might be able to win a 14 man event in SoCal or an 8 man event in rural UK, but bigger events will attract better players who will fly the top options, and win with them. 

 

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Oh I'm still behind HS as the superior competitive format. 

I just think the 1.0 hangover adds considerable weight to Extended misery. Fresher eyes are needed to enjoy it, if you're playing to win at majors. Points have changed since the last go round and..... well, it's just a game, why be miserable just to compete on an even keel?

As an addendum, I'm not picking sides. I'm not an Extended Defender or a Combo Wing Fan.  I'm not entirely a Filthy Casual either, I play against top class players, I play at any and all events I can. I do play to win, but I also play for fun. And I do that with whatever takes my fancy, in whatever format is on offer.

The biggest defining factor of my whole perspective is that I'm basically anti-meta. I'm still proudly on course in my ambition to never play a single mirror match while aiming above evens in my W-L. It's a good place to be in either format. 

Its idealism of a sort, but the desire to use only 'wholesome' things and hit top tables at the same time, in a full field of 'wholesome' things is a far more specific kind of idealism, one that is clearly far harder to happily actualize.

My approach is equally challenging, but seems much more rewarding. I dunno, fly something weird, make new friends, have fun, it works.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

First, again, extended is inherently harder to balance because of the larger pool of interactions (both from a points-fairness perspective, and combo-wing).

Second, there are cards in the overall card pool that are, themselves, hard to points balance, and just sorta break the game: supernatural reflexes, advanced sensors. Even 7b has demonstrated it appears to be vastly undervalued. (Force, generally, but then anything that magnifies things with force makes points even more complicated).

Third, Most of extended is out of print, and much of it is the most competitive thing in extended format. So, you're genuinely telling new players to screw themselves if they want to get into the game competitively, or to specifically play 2 of 7 factions (or 4 of 7 factions if resistance falcons/bombers and FO SFs and upsilons are not competitive). That seems... a weird stance.

Fourth, on the "more choices" thing - you can stick by it, but man, you literally don't sway me or basically anyone else on this. As we have said, and as numerous videos have been posted referring to studies and game design, limited choice can actually create more interesting decision making. Further, as shown in extended, despite "MOAR CHOICE", the competitive choices just narrow down to a few selections again anyway. 

Fifth (a caveat of #1) - power gaps between lists are magnified, meaning far more lists actually do start losing at list building. You keep saying it's not true, but if someone brings Oli's worlds list, and someone brings 4 named x-wings, I promise the player with Oli's list can mess up more and still win, because of token stacks, agility stacks, and force stacks. Things that, outside of boba, are hard to replicate (almost by... design) in hyperspace.

 

 

Edited by Tlfj200

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Good news though, extended fans - you won. 
 

The only competitive events that are hyperspace are system opens, which are infrequent.

The normal interactions you'll have at a store level that are competitive (read, invites), are extended, so you can show all those new players your non-movie ships. When they ask to buy them, you can refer them to ebay. When they look sad, you can point to republic or separatists, and tell them to stay in their lane (but with a nice tone, so it sounds like a joke). 


You won. It's fine. You don't actually have to convince anyone. Nor will you. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Nothing in X-Wing 2.0 is decided outside dials and dice.

I couldnt disagree with this more. 

Extended by design reduces emphasis on good decision making. In favor of easier decision making. 

As an example: 

Hyperspace pre-movement reposition, dial changing, and dial revealing:

  • Slave 1
  • BB8  
  • Tie Strikers 
  • Tie Reapers
  • Vi Moradi 
  • Ani N1 
  • Ved Foslo
  • Passive Sensors 

Extended pre-movement reposition, dial changing, and dial revealing: 

  • Slave 1 
  • Duchess
  • BB8 
  • Tie Strikers 
  • Tie Reapers
  • Vi Moradi 
  • Ani N1 
  • Ved Foslo
  • Guri 
  • Supernatural 
  • Precognitive Reflexes 
  • Sabine 
  • Advanced Sensors
  • Sense
  • Informant 
  • Seasoned Navigator 
  • Luke Gunner
  • Hera Pilot
  • Tie Phantoms 
  • Snoke 
  • Afterburners
  • Ensnare
  • Passive Sensors 

And thats before you start to consider how many more coordinate, double reposition, and turret options there are in Extended. If you make a bad decision in Extended cards are more likely to be able to let you mitigate it. It might look like good decision making but it absolutely is not, its just reaction. In Hyperspace, you basically only have Boba and Kylo for that. The biggest threat beside Boba to hyperspace is force charges which reward incompetence at every turn. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

 

  • Slave 1 
  • Duchess
  • BB8 
  • Guri 
  • Supernatural 
  • Precognitive Reflexes 
  • Sabine 
  • Advanced Sensors
  • Sense
  • Informant 
  • Seasoned Navigator 
  • Luke Gunner
  • Hera Pilot
  • Tie Phantoms 
  • Snoke 
  • Afterburners
  • Ensnare

 

So I take these things and just win? Because that's not my experience.

Or my opponent does and I just lose? Because neither is that.

Or my opponent does, I can still win, but I have no fun?  Nope.

We both take it, the world burns and babies cry.... 

I've said it before, at the height of Nantex pain. I enjoy the challenge of going against such things. It's still a game decided on the mat by our various choices. Even if they only give you one choice, before all others are gone. Which is just as true of pure, wholesome HS joust lists.

If I'm trying to convince anybody of anything, it's that what you get from your various life experiences is equivalent to what you put in. It's up to us as individuals to partake of things in a positive way and find the margin of joy, rather than bemoan the experience we've set ourselves up for and salt the Earth.

I'm pretty sure you can all play a decent game against anything, whether you enjoy it or not is purely subjective and not indicative of a wider truth.

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Posted (edited)

One of the other amazing examples of this is Vader.

Hyperspace Vader: 

  • Passive Sensors ( Stapled at all times ) 
    • Avoid thinking about Offensive Range control to acquire locks 
    • Still benefit from thinking through Defensive Range control to prevent locks
    • Avoid deciding any of your actions until i7 and to react to being arc dodged at specific angles 
  • Force Charges
    • To opt into blocks and defending against multiple shots with 3 agility 
    • Allows K-turns with mods when keeping locks from prior turns 
    • Allows moving over and through obstacles with modification 
  • Arc Dodge Gameplay 
    • Arc Dodge via dial choices over multiple turns and use of obstacles to control opponent options 
    • Generally have to use the rest of your list to fully engineer flanks or to get end game Vader operational 

Extended Vader: 

  • Afterburners ( Stapled at all times ) 
    • Allows full disengage from bad decisions 
    • Allows double reposition arc dodging
    • Allows range control mitigation with or without passive sensors which is still stapled 
    • Allows boosting after hitting obstacles or while stressed...
  • Precog ( Self-explanatory glue that people think is bad for some reason ) 
  • Proton Rockets ( Which are actually insane if you think about it....Vader can mostly guarantee to trade up every game ) 
  • Sense to let your entire list decide actions by itself 

So basically Vader in hyperspace is interesting and still extremely powerful. Mainly because you pick a dial and live with the decision. In extended he is fun primarily because he makes alot of decisions for you which is great but not particularly skill based. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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