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6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'll think about it, but didn't you just need an example?

 

 

It wasn't an example of a list, it was an example of a matchup.  If the field is all aces, droids might have a clock advantage, but it's not intrinsic to the list.

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3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

On the other end the droid opponent usually "knows" they are going to trade a piece of their list entirely, but not all of their list. And the strategy against droids revolves around that reality. Your gonna lose something. 

I actually dont think enough/most people realize this yet, and this is where the heartburn is coming from.

This is actually, generally true of swarm play, and was already [generally] true of old inferno swarm - the tactic was to accept you cannot really "escape" being shot, and so you need to spread out a bit so you can attack the swarm without making it comically easy for them to have follow up shots.

But I dont think people have "accepted" they have to lose things in x-wing. They think like 1.0: "you die, I live" and "muh dice!"

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9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually dont think enough/most people realize this yet, and this is where the heartburn is coming from.

This is actually, generally true of swarm play, and was already [generally] true of old inferno swarm - the tactic was to accept you cannot really "escape" being shot, and so you need to spread out a bit so you can attack the swarm without making it comically easy for them to have follow up shots.

But I dont think people have "accepted" they have to lose things in x-wing. They think like 1.0: "you die, I live" and "muh dice!"

 

^ yeah I would agree with this.

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42 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually dont think enough/most people realize this yet, and this is where the heartburn is coming from.

This is actually, generally true of swarm play, and was already [generally] true of old inferno swarm - the tactic was to accept you cannot really "escape" being shot, and so you need to spread out a bit so you can attack the swarm without making it comically easy for them to have follow up shots.

But I dont think people have "accepted" they have to lose things in x-wing. They think like 1.0: "you die, I live" and "muh dice!"

Totally this.  I'd say that accepting the loss of a ship helps at X-wing in general, but against swarms it's much less avoidable, so the sooner you come to terms with it and figure out a way to deal with it, the better.

I don't know how many times I've steamrolled games because I was willing to accept a mildly suboptimal joust for positioning advantages,  but my opponent refuses to risk a joust and so they never get multiple ***** aligned and I just chase them forever.  

 

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Wait, didn't we have Worlds data on completion rate and advantage by faction. IIRC CIS was in the middle on completion rate and negative on completion advantage. I distinctly recall taking away that droids needed to play faster. It stood out because the conventional wisdom was that droids got an advantage going to time, but the sample we had clearly indicated the opposite.

 

There were a few possible explanations such as less experienced players being less likely to complete rounds, but droids also have a bit of a mid game slump after the initial trade before they finally close out the game which might be where time is getting called? All speculation and impossible to really prove unfortunately.

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18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But I dont think people have "accepted" they have to lose things in x-wing. They think like 1.0: "you die, I live" and "muh dice!"

Absolutely. I'm still very much learning how to game this aspect of things and my boy, (classic 'new player' mentality at 10), still thinks he only needs to trade in some games, he gets a bit tilted at times when something dies..

I spent the longest time basically trying not to lose anything. Honestly, a big part of me still approaches games with this mindset :D

Regarding "unresolved" games, I feel like the clock is well on point, the majority of my games aren't worth taking into overtime. If it's a major issue, not trying to keep all the aces alive forever works for me :D

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As a swarm player I follow the great Justin Hammer / Ivan Vanko teaching:

Don't get too attached to things. Learn to let go.

 

24 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Wait, didn't we have Worlds data on completion rate and advantage by faction. IIRC CIS was in the middle on completion rate and negative on completion advantage. I distinctly recall taking away that droids needed to play faster. It stood out because the conventional wisdom was that droids got an advantage going to time, but the sample we had clearly indicated the opposite.

I don't think this means what you think it means. If I remember correctly (not scrolling up) that stat was calculated by getting the number of 200-X games versus the number of X-Y games.

What I think it means is that swarm list take longer to wipe out when they loose.

 

Swarms (especially CIS sear swarms) have a large damage advantage in the early game that decreases rapidly and they also bleed points faster than other lists. The scenario where the swarm ends up loosing because it did not have time to hunt that last hull point  on a damaged point fortress looks less likely to me than the reverse : the opposing list just does not have the time to finish all swarm ships. 

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2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually dont think enough/most people realize this yet, and this is where the heartburn is coming from.

This is actually, generally true of swarm play, and was already [generally] true of old inferno swarm - the tactic was to accept you cannot really "escape" being shot, and so you need to spread out a bit so you can attack the swarm without making it comically easy for them to have follow up shots.

But I dont think people have "accepted" they have to lose things in x-wing. They think like 1.0: "you die, I live" and "muh dice!"

Hey man, I bought biggs in 1.0 for him to die in every game and got unreasonably angry when ffg gave him an option to not die :P

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1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

I'm not sure what we are mad about today. At first glance, it would seem someone is mad about losing ships but I'm not actually seeing anyone take that perspective.

We're hypothetically sad at people's loss aversion to losing ships.

Possibly mad at it, but definitely sad.

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5 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

We're hypothetically sad at people's loss aversion to losing ships.

Possibly mad at it, but definitely sad.

oh carry on then, hypothetical sadness isn't on my to do list today. I'll check back later when someone steps up and lets us be mad at them for whatever reason

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2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually dont think enough/most people realize this yet, and this is where the heartburn is coming from.

I know this was me for most of 2.0.  I only got out of that mentality with the latest points update, which changed the stuff I played and somewhat how I play.

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I'd say that accepting the loss of a ship helps at X-wing in general, but against swarms it's much less avoidable, so the sooner you come to terms with it and figure out a way to deal with it, the better.

This is the swarm match-up thought process that I'm interested in.  I assume I'll lose something, but how do I (try to) engineer that to be a thing of my choosing?

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4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I know this was me for most of 2.0.  I only got out of that mentality with the latest points update, which changed the stuff I played and somewhat how I play.

This is the swarm match-up thought process that I'm interested in.  I assume I'll lose something, but how do I (try to) engineer that to be a thing of my choosing?

 

That's a good question for any matchup, just harder to answer when more arcs are on the table. Loose formations that can punish the enemy for going after a key target helps, but a lot of it will just be reading the other player. Skilled players in particular usually have a target in mind for their traps, so figuring out who is currently agroed and what the potential trap is can be a big difference maker.

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X-wing in certain matchups can be really hard to determine who is winning. If you lost a strong piece, but your opponent is out of proton torps/barrage rockets/etc you might be technically losing on points but winning in board position. 

CIS in specific is a really strange faction to weigh winning and losing: between discord missiles, other ordinance, networked calculations, and the general fragility of their ships you often will start winning before you are technically winning but it's easy to fall into a funk looking at the hill you need to climb.

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14 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I assume I'll lose something, but how do I (try to) engineer that to be a thing of my choosing?

With a lot of lists (especially X-Wings and other beefy/maneuverable ships) the trick is to present your healthiest ships as optimal targets to keep as many guns on the board for as long as possible. Forcing them to choose between a R1 shot on a full-health X-Wing and a R3 shot on a focused A-Wing limping on 1 hull is kind of what it's all about.

Of course, that's easier said than done, but still I've found it effective in my limited experience.

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