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3 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Wait, who am I laughing at here? Are we saying T65s make cut and then flop?

Wasn't it really bad variance away from being in the finals at Fort Worth?

Don't think there'd be nearly enough evidence to say they flop in the cut. Even if they only win 1 game in a cut, they're doing better than 50% of the cut.

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On 2/23/2020 at 9:52 AM, Tlfj200 said:

I’m going to be honest: pre-points change extended anti-excites me.

Why?

There's been, like 1 event in Extended since the points changes. And we all just assume nothing's changed, in spite of the most massive across-the-board points cost change to date?

Of course your favorite offenders didn't get nerfed and I know that feels bad, but there's no particular reason to think they'll still be that strong in a world where Sloane Swarms, FOcho, and Resistance I4s go 5-0.

I absolutely love Hyperspace. I've been loving playing it and I've been loving watching the competitive scene around it (and the lovely monkey fort memes). But I'm probably slightly more interested in how Extended shakes out as it tells us more about the ultimate state of the game as it currently stands.

Am I wrong, or was Worlds this last year about the most meta-diverse X-Wing event that's ever happened? And the second place went to a list that no one had ever heard of before that featured two ships that were generally considered to be laughably bad? And after the points changes that diversity should have increased, shouldn't it have?

I think it's way too early in the season to be calling for more points changes. In all honesty, I see the biggest offenders in Extended being the same as the biggest offenders in Hyperspace (Firesprays and FO mostly). Sure the I5+ aces have been doing okay in Extended, but the swarmy lists, efficiency lists, etc. have been doing really well too.

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2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Of course your favorite offenders didn't get nerfed and I know that feels bad, but there's no particular reason to think they'll still be that strong in a world where Sloane Swarms, FOcho, and Resistance I4s go 5-0.

FOcho is a worse droid swarm, and droid swarms are a known quanity (along with trip aces and jedi).

Sloane swarm do not scare jedi, droid swarms, or force imp aces.

Resistance i4s do not affect the aforementioned squads.

 

That, alongside te continual rabble that swarms are ruining the game and dragging games to time (which I vehemently disagree with, but it's tiresome), and I just want new points for extended.

I'm very, very tired of big brain aces.

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19 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

I meant 'experienced' as in experienced flying massed generics, not necessarily experienced playing X-Wing in general. I think whenever you get a threshold change like this ("OMG you can fly 5 X-Wings now!") you get the people who wouldn't otherwise fly that sort of build checking it out to see if it's good. But they usually fly the flavor of the month so they don't know their rule or 11 or how to not fly as a block so they go 2-4/3-3, call the list overrated and then move onto something else next week.

that makes more sense to me. 

It's possible generics are harder to fly than stuff like Boba but I still think the current data is enough to say that there aren't going to be any oppressively good generic spam lists this season

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23 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm very, very tired of big brain aces.

If the MK Worlds qualifier is any indication, they're not doing all that well in extended. None of the 13 reported 5-0 lists had Jedi, and only one was an ace list (Vader/Quiz/Sabacc?) unless you count Rey/Nein/Ello as a big brain ace list.

The only Jedi lists reported in the top 100 were 5x CLT Jedi Knights. There are a few instances of Imp Ace lists, but it's not like they dominated in any sense, and it's not like they don't exist in Hyperspace either...

If you look on ListFortress, there are 3 Jedi in the top 50, but pretty much all force aces have a very poor representation-to-performance ratio, indicating that they're overrepresented for how well they actually perform within the format. The opposite is true for most efficiency pieces...

IDK I just don't see it being anywhere near as grim as it's depicted in the popular imagination.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If the MK Worlds qualifier is any indication, they're not doing all that well in extended. None of the 13 reported 5-0 lists had Jedi, and only one was an ace list (Vader/Quiz/Sabacc?) unless you count Rey/Nein/Ello as a big brain ace list.

The only Jedi lists reported in the top 100 were 5x CLT Jedi Knights. There are a few instances of Imp Ace lists, but it's not like they dominated in any sense, and it's not like they don't exist in Hyperspace either...

IDK I just don't see it being anywhere near as grim as it's depicted in the popular imagination.

I’m pretty sure the extended events at system opens is slightly suspect, people are probably majority practicing hyperspace going into those events and it is more of an afterthought? 
 

Not to say it isn’t valuable, but I’d stick an asterisk on it until I get some good correlation. 

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8 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If the MK Worlds qualifier is any indication, they're not doing all that well in extended. None of the 13 reported 5-0 lists had Jedi, and only one was an ace list (Vader/Quiz/Sabacc?) unless you count Rey/Nein/Ello as a big brain ace list.

Maybe, but one data point does not make a trend line. We'll see.

 

8 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There are a few instances of Imp Ace lists, but it's not like they dominated in any sense, and it's not like they don't exist in Hyperspace either...

Imperial aces  (with a bunch of afterburners and slapped on force points) do not exist in hyperspace.

7b Jedi do not exist in hyperspace.

 

 

Edited by Tlfj200

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2 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I’m pretty sure the extended events at system opens is slightly suspect, people are probably majority practicing hyperspace going into those events and it is more of an afterthought? 

Agreed, though they're still made up of world-class players, and with Worlds invites on the line, there's certainly some top-level competition. David Sutcliffe (who went 5-0 with Sloane Swarm) said it was still a very competitive environment, but

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

one data point does not make a trend line.

so i can't say for sure.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Imperial aces  (whith a bunch of afterburners and slapped on force points) do not exist in hyperspace.

7b Jedi do not exist in hyperspace.

Agreed. None of them has above 30 average percentile (except Kylo who still has almost all his toys in Hyperspace), so I feel like their Meta Wing standing has to do with expectations based on last season's meta that haven't panned out, but again, I could be wrong. They're getting played a lot, and they're doing... okay. Nothing major.

But again, of course, small sample size. This is why I find it fascinating.

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3 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't think we should take side events into consideration. 

It's not like we have a lot of major non-side events to take into consideration.

We can only work from data we have. Not many people are playing Extended for reasons stated in the previous hundred pages of this thread or so. Everyone assumes it will be a rehash of last season so no one will play it.

But the small amount of evidence we do have (which is all we can go on) indicates the exact opposite. That's all I have to say.

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My extended playstyle:

  • 2 double re-positioning alpha strike i6 aces with consistent double/passive mods and one with premovement reposition + an i5 supporting ace that token stacks and occasionally throws 5 dice at a vulture 

My hyperspace playstyle:

  • I still have no idea what is correct. 
  • Mostly just bringing 1 or 2 High Init pieces and as many ships as possible 
  • Poe + Squad, Kylo + Squad, Holo + France + Squad 

Can someone remind me again why any major tournament uses the extended format? 

Edited by Boom Owl

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4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

2 double re-positioning alpha strike i6 aces with consistent double/passive mods + an i5 supporting ace that token stacks and occasionally throws 5 dice at a vulture 

There is no list in the game that fits that description unless you're putting trick shot on Duchess (except she can't token stack so still no match) or Afterburners on Quickdraw (except no token stack/passive mods so still no match).

You're also still talking about last season so I don't buy it. Replicate those results with that list in the current Extended and I'll listen.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

My extended playstyle:

  • 2 double re-positioning alpha strike i6 aces with consistent double/passive mods and one with premovement reposition + an i5 supporting ace that token stacks and occasionally throws 5 dice at a vulture 

 

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

There is no list in the game that fits that description unless you're putting trick shot on Duchess (except she can't token stack so still no match).

I know a guy... image.thumb.png.564cbca25971cfd9dd27aa90752f095c.png

(PAX Unplugged) 

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Just now, Boom Owl said:

No u

HSDNu5s.png

Oooo look at all the scary double-mod force-using high-initiative aces that are rolling everything up in extended!

(And yes this is filtered for extended only)

yIuzpY3.png

Oh there they are. Yeah so glad those ones aren't in Hyperspace! Never mind that their actual win percentage is much much lower in extended. Look how popular they are!

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1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

HSDNu5s.png

Oooo look at all the scary double-mod force-using high-initiative aces that are rolling everything up in extended!

(And yes this is filtered for extended only)

yIuzpY3.png

Oh there they are. Yeah so glad those ones aren't in Hyperspace! Never mind that their actual win percentage is much much lower in extended. Look how popular they are!

Look at those high sample sizes!

(do I need to post the "see! no one cares?" meme?) No offense, but it's not just this thread - the competitive format is geared towards hyperspace. When regionals rolls around, we'll see some push at extended, but even then, points will simply shift mid-season.

So... if you're excited, awesome! but man, are you mad I'm not or something? I just don't care about current-points extended. Sorry?

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1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Look at those high sample sizes!

 

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

So... if you're excited, awesome! but man, are you mad I'm not or something?

One is a symptom of the other. I'm not mad at you. I'm actually not mad in general. It's just that the concept of 

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

the competitive format is geared towards hyperspace.

Is entirely false but entirely believed as true. The distribution is 50/50. I would love to see bigger sample sizes. But no one will play it. Because everyone believes it will be a rehash of last season. Which isn't borne out by the (admittedly very meager) existing evidence.

But I realize that I'm being annoying at this point, so I'll stop. It's okay. I get that other people don't want to play in a format where Supernatural Reflexes and Ensnare exist. That's... fine, I guess. I'll just wait. Maybe forever 😕

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6 minutes ago, RStan said:

I don't recall @Boom Owl saying it was dominating the meta, just that was his "extended playstyle" and stating in a way he's not enjoying what can be created in extended. 

Extended is such trash I had to unnecessarily spend 14 pts on proton rockets to make my list worse so I could tolerate 6 games of it. 

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