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1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

It might be that since Ive been playing with etc pairings for 3 years I might be blinded,but wouldn't be easier to just use simultaneous pairings and limited choices? Your system basically guarantees every team gets one to two matchups they want without much efforts on their parts.

Simultaneous pairings takes out some of the fun of the draft style though. And if every team gets one or two matchups they like, that means they get one or two they don't like. If it's the 2, then they lost in the team list building phase.

Sure you can try to run 2 bids and 2 anti-swarm, but what are aces actually good against? Less skilled players and aces with a lower bid? Also what's anti-swarm in hyperspace?

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1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

What's stopping a team to do that anyway? You can bring 2 crazy bid lists and 2 antiswarm list anyway. If they make you go second you have at least 2 guaranteed matchup without any effort, if you go first you might have to sacrifice one player, but the outcome would be similar. 

Have I misunderstood something? 

Generally, team B realistically gets to choose 2 matchups nearly directly, dodge one completely atrocious matchup, and mostly dictate one matchup.

Basically, of the four matchups, the matchups are decided by:

1. B

2. A

3. B

4. B

 

Let's say A shows up with 2 ace lists that are super teched for the mirror with huge bids, and two swarms.  B has two ace lists that have no bid, but can actually handle swarms because of it, and two swarms.

1. A chooses joust and bans a joust.  B places one of the aces against the joust.

2. B places a joust and bans A's joust. A must play an ace list.

At this point both A and B have an ace and a joust list remaining.  What happens next?  B picks both matchups.

3. A places down either list and gets destroyed either in this pairing or the next - if they place their swarm, B places aces.  If they place their aces, B places their swarm.

Example final pairings

1. A's swarm vs B's aces (50-50)

2. A's aces vs B's swarm (B favored)

3. A's swarm vs B's aces (50-50)

4. A's aces vs B's swarm (B favored)

 

 

As you can see, A has no good matchups, and B has no bad matchups.  What happens if A starts with aces?

1. A aces vs B swarm (B favored)

2. A swarm vs B aces (50-50) (B chooses aces, and bans A's only remaining ace list)

And again to where it doesn't matter which A puts down, as B is choosing both matchups.

3. A aces vs B swarm (B favored)

4. A swarm vs B aces (50-50)

 

That's only one example of course, but give it a shot with different lists and you'll quickly see that you'd rather have well balanced lists that care less about player order.

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TL;DR the entire point is that the pairing selection is NOT fair - it is weighted in B's favor, to create incentive to minimize bids.  Both teams get to pick two matchups, yes, but as the last matchup only has one list available for each player, the third selection is really deciding the last two matchups.

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1 hour ago, Smikies02 said:

Simultaneous pairings takes out some of the fun of the draft style though. And if every team gets one or two matchups they like, that means they get one or two they don't like. If it's the 2, then they lost in the team list building phase.

Sure you can try to run 2 bids and 2 anti-swarm, but what are aces actually good against? Less skilled players and aces with a lower bid? Also what's anti-swarm in hyperspace?

I think it adds another interesting layer into the pairings system, since it forces you to also guess which lists your opponent will throw against you first

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

TL;DR the entire point is that the pairing selection is NOT fair - it is weighted in B's favor, to create incentive to minimize bids.  Both teams get to pick two matchups, yes, but as the last matchup only has one list available for each player, the third selection is really deciding the last two matchups.

Thanks for the in-depth example! I don't think I like your system, since you are basically forcing the bid war into the opposite direction rather than killing it (aka passive sensor vader>any other ace), but it seems to fulfill your needs so I'm glad it works for you!

I think you should try to raise team to at least 5 people and try simoultaneous launch thought, but again it might just be my bias

14 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You misspelled "maul"

I can't quote it enough: this thread is making people thinking it's Slave 1 that makes boba boba, but it's actually maul (and boba ability).

Yeah, slave 1 at 1 point is a mistake since it's an autoinclude, but I'd rather cut Slave 1 than maul

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Premovement dial commitment adjustments, ublockable unrockable unstressable passive dice mods, rear arc with boost + passive or linked modifiers, and stressless or consequence light double reposition are the enemy of the free marmosets of fort hyperspace. 

I for one am mad at more than just Boba. Im not as mad at Roger Roger. Im also not as mad at hyperspace. The foundations of extended are the enemy. Remain vigilant.

Edited by Boom Owl

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5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Thanks for the in-depth example! I don't think I like your system, since you are basically forcing the bid war into the opposite direction rather than killing it (aka passive sensor vader>any other ace), but it seems to fulfill your needs so I'm glad it works for you!

Yep - the model for krayt cup I use is I just make the tournament I would want to play in and dictator-for-life all decisions that way.  It'll work great, up until it doesn't, then I can finally be free from having to run this thing and can play in someone else's instead, haha.

 

I hate the bid war in standard events - in team events, it's even dumber as you start getting hyper specialized list building solely to beat weird meta team lists.  In my opinion, the less squad building has an effect on the "actual" game, the better.  For example, yes, I'd argue that Passive Sensors Vader is net good for the game, despite it clearly not being what passive sensors was intended to be used for.

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I don't understand. Boba gets to

  • change his dial immediately before moving
  • passive mods (offensive and defensive)
    • from Maul
    • from Boba himself

That's three degenerate parts. Bombs, talents, contrabands, hull: those are just icing on top. The degeneracy comes from the three above. And they are eerily reminiscent of 1.0 Removing Maul still leaves Boba independent of actions, which allows him to boost in or run away. Removing the title removes an entire category.

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6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't understand. Boba gets to

  • change his dial immediately before moving
  • passive mods (offensive and defensive)
    • from Maul
    • from Boba himself

That's three degenerate parts. Bombs, talents, contrabands, hull: those are just icing on top. The degeneracy comes from the three above. And they are eerily reminiscent of 1.0 Removing Maul still leaves Boba independent of actions, which allows him to boost in or run away. Removing the title removes an entire category.

Wait, you mean unlimited offensive and defensive mods, tied to range one which he has an unprecedented level of control over with medium base boost on top of being I5 and having a 1 point dial change upgrade and access to Force along with 180 degrees of 3 die attacks on a body that has two agility and ten HP to resist alpha strikes is a problem?

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1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

Wait, you mean unlimited offensive and defensive mods, tied to range one which he has an unprecedented level of control over with medium base boost on top of being I5 and having a 1 point dial change upgrade and access to Force along with 180 degrees of 3 die attacks on a body that has two agility and ten HP to resist alpha strikes is a problem?

Yes, yes I do.

And that does not even take into consideration that actual maneuver changes are the most degenerate parts of that game, particularly on i5 pilots with equal strength rear arcs. Worse offenders than premaneuver repositions.
The VCX is another example, but with a weaker rear arc. The attack shuttle is another one, but without a rear arc (just a turret, possibly). In a sense, Cova+Leia (and any ship together with Leia) is too, because they can dial in a red when stressed and decide upon activation. Cassian Andor is an ok implementation because he's apparently just bad. Inertial dampeners now comes with additional cost, plus is 5pts.

EVERYTHING ELSE is made costly/worse in some way, whether you get stressed and damaged, or can just do it on red maneuvers, or have to guess a maneuver. Just slave1 is this ridiculous auto include at 1pt.

Why would it not stress? Why does Boba not have a "if you are not stressed" qualifier? At least force players to decide between the two. That would still be very good, but a start.

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You use Maul every turn.

You use Slave 1 maybe once every 2 games.

Which one is more impactful?

THe issue I have with slave 1 is that at 1 point is basically a no brain include with no opportunity cost, not slave 1 on its own

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Yep - the model for krayt cup I use is I just make the tournament I would want to play in and dictator-for-life all decisions that way.  It'll work great, up until it doesn't, then I can finally be free from having to run this thing and can play in someone else's instead, haha.

 

I hate the bid war in standard events - in team events, it's even dumber as you start getting hyper specialized list building solely to beat weird meta team lists.  In my opinion, the less squad building has an effect on the "actual" game, the better.  For example, yes, I'd argue that Passive Sensors Vader is net good for the game, despite it clearly not being what passive sensors was intended to be used for.

iirc, in the XTC history no winning team had truly degenerate bids.

I think it helps that with those rules you don't really get any guaranteed pairings, you only get to avoid some most of the time, so incredible bids aren't autowin per se

I'm on the opposite side regarding passive Vader: I prefer to have a game where aces really have to invest in their moving last and still risking a bigger fish rather than paying 3 points and be always ok

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1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

I think it helps that with those rules you don't really get any guaranteed pairings, you only get to avoid some most of the time, so incredible bids aren't autowin per se

I'm on the opposite side regarding passive Vader: I prefer to have a game where aces really have to invest in their moving last and still risking a bigger fish rather than paying 3 points and be always ok

Right, the point I'm making is that I reject the idea that aces cutting points against each other to decide who autowins the matchup is an interesting or good way to play the game.  "I beat you because I'm willing to have an X% disadvantage in a different matchup" is a stupid game.

 

I realize that's an exaggeration, but for a lot of metas - it's not.  The winrate for aces against each other has been >70% multiples times based on player order already in second edition.  If we had some turrets that weren't laughably awful it might help, but that hasn't happened so far...

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7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

  If we had some turrets that weren't laughably awful it might help, but that hasn't happened so far...

Please be careful of what you say. It might come true in an As Written instant of As Intended. Ie, super turrets

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21 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

You use Maul every turn.

You use Slave 1 maybe once every 2 games.

The threat of Slave 1 is always there, and constantly forcing your opponent to alter their approach. It's also a lot more degenerate (hey, nice block, to bad I'm over here now and you don't have any shots because I also boosted away) than a calculate a turn.

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11 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

The threat of Slave 1 is always there, and constantly forcing your opponent to alter their approach. It's also a lot more degenerate (hey, nice block, to bad I'm over here now and you don't have any shots because I also boosted away) than a calculate a turn.

True, I often get the impression opponents give up even trying to block Boba with Slave 1 such are the possible final positions. And it gives the Boba player so much freedom in  planning 2 moves each turn.

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2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right, the point I'm making is that I reject the idea that aces cutting points against each other to decide who autowins the matchup is an interesting or good way to play the game.  "I beat you because I'm willing to have an X% disadvantage in a different matchup" is a stupid game.

 

I realize that's an exaggeration, but for a lot of metas - it's not.  The winrate for aces against each other has been >70% multiples times based on player order already in second edition.  If we had some turrets that weren't laughably awful it might help, but that hasn't happened so far...

Yeah I'm with you on this, it's not that I like that aces matchups are mostly decided by the bids, I just don't think passives sensor makes it better

 

15 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

The threat of Slave 1 is always there, and constantly forcing your opponent to alter their approach. It's also a lot more degenerate (hey, nice block, to bad I'm over here now and you don't have any shots because I also boosted away) than a calculate a turn.

Boba Maul cares about blocks?

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4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah I'm with you on this, it's not that I like that aces matchups are mostly decided by the bids, I just don't think passives sensor makes it better

 

Boba Maul cares about blocks?

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

Technically... marginally (not really).

I do when the block is the only safe place?

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