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2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Holo SF SF SF EP EP = 200 Points

Ace Squad Squad Squad Squad Gang

Is it better than Avenger EP EP EP SF SF? I'd be excited to see this as a popular alternate to OldPara's Polish nats list. The 2 lists would demonstrate the interactions of what makes a good piece a good piece: raw ship stats, pilot ability and Initiative, and role determined by points bracket and interaction with friends. And the selection of the variant would be a place where a viable preference one way or another in playstyle makes the overarching decision.

Strictly speaking, the Silencer is a better ship than the ba. But the ba abilities all tend to be better than Silencer abilities and I5 > I3, especially since the later the ba is moving, the less consequential the self-nerfs are (getting to the threshold and crossing it where a self-nerf for 2 actions is better than stress). Holo's ability seems to work with high ships perhaps just as well as Avenger.

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Tie BA ramble, based on 4 hyperspace games ( Vonreg + 3 BA, Kylo Vonreg Rush, Holo +5, and Kylo Ember Scorch Backdraft ) 
Some obvious stuff but seems worth detailing: 

  • Offense/Defense: 
    • Lock focus gives you strain/deplete ( not you Holo ) 
    • Depleting at Range 1 if you cant init kill seems good
    • Cannot easily re-position if you want double mods 
    • Benefits greatly from setting up locks previous turns 
    • Only "one" focus token, instead of stack of purple calculates 
    • Even with focus lock you often won't want to spend that focus on offense 
    • Regen changes that choice slightly but I havent tried it yet 
    • Fanatical and Holo main ways in Hyper to improve token choices
    • Common to end up doing a Lock Boost ( think Fangs Focus Boosting but less durable ) 
    • You don't always have to chase the Lock Focus, its ok to just Focus like a normal ship 
    • Also Evade exists and its not even purple
    • Getting Blocked Actually Matters ( Weird ) 
  • Mobility: 
    • Roll + Boost = No Mods ( Also Weird )
    • Roll followed by Boost Only = More situations your dial needs to be correct
    • Gas Clouds are extremely helpful and still dumb 
    • 1 Blue Turns are incredibly useful but predictable, particularly 1 turn boost
    • 1 Blue Banks allow for slow rolling attack runs  
    • Keeping Deplete/Strain is sometimes necessary to disengage over 2 turns or k/sloop 
    • Prevents the lock or roll but still typically worth considering to nope out 
    • You dont have to do a blue just because you have deplete, 5 straight boost is pretty good  
    • Moving through obstacles and rolling or locking is pretty dumb 
    • Daredevil is "neat" for setting your dial more generically but not something I have tried yet 
    • It doesnt stress so it can actually K-Turn or Sloop but doesnt usually need to
  • Engage 
    • Ideally wants to set up on a flank to just focus/lock to victory
    • Important not to be to protective of the ship though there moments it simply has to deal with trading
    • Fragile ship, so often will "settle" for just trying to Trading shots/damage 
    • Some matchups where its offense will probably overwhelm an opponents list similar to what 7b Jedi do 
    • Think 7b Jedi without the token stack for defending against multiple shots and splitting calcs across off/def. So basically the 7b jedi comparison isnt a good one.
    • The Vonreg really benefits from Recycling Aces to generate flanks throughout the game
  • Pilots
    • i3s are actually very unique at 45 pts they feel like mobile budget fragile Braylen Mini Aces. A couple of these can bully other generics.  
    • Vonreg's Pilot ability actually kinda matters as a control element but I dont see myself chasing it as a strategy
    • Vonreg being i6 super definitely matters, I dont think Holo is strictly better in all lists
    • Ember can cause serious problems for single targets but a 2 pt difference to Holo is highly questionable 
    • Holo passing evade tokens to Kylo is something I want to Test 
    • Friendly Locking Holo on paper seems helpful but then you remember Kylo and Vonreg want to lock enemy ships 
    • I like the i3 BA and wish there was an i1 or i2 Tie BA 
    • Overall the Tie BA is actually a really cool ship that genuinely isn't good at everything it wants to do or everything we are used to doing with Soontir/7b/Vader/Whisper/Guri/etc. 
    • Its flaws make it interesting and doesnt automatically make it useless 
Edited by Boom Owl

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7 hours ago, Brunas said:

Omega Squadron Ace (28)
Proud Tradition (2)

vs

Zeta Squadron Survivor (32)

 

Sorry SFs

 

7 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Is it better than Avenger EP EP EP SF SF? 

Avenger w/ Fanatical, Omega Ace w/ PTrad x2, Muse PTrad, EP x2

OR

Avenger w/ Adv Optics, Omega Ace w/ PTrad x3, EP x2

OR OR

Avenger w/ Adv Proton Torps, Omega Ace w/ PTrad x2, Lt. Rivas, EP x2

 

This is the way.

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3 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

okay, maybe its early, but you're going to have to walk me through how OSA with proud tradition is good

I dunno about good but FOs sometimes need to sloop or k turn to stay relevant or keep up with lists that do that with mods ( see rear arc turrets). Also FO dial is dope so red focus isnt a huge issue. Also if your opponent is spending mods to slightly annoy 30 pt omega they probably have other problems.

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 minute ago, catachanninja said:

okay, maybe its early, but you're going to have to walk me through how OSA with proud tradition is good

Maybe I can guess before he says anything: taking that focus on sloop gives you a pseudo RZ2 level of time on target with mods for cheep.

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14 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

okay, maybe its early, but you're going to have to walk me through how OSA with proud tradition is good

1. SFs were brought for time on target with mods. OSA w/ PTrad is now doing that for cheaper via it's 2 sloops and 4ks. 

2. SFs tended to slowly drift away from the fight where as now the OSAs can now give chase potentially with even higher time on target than SFs. Eventually the SFs needed to sloop or 2turn when they started getting closer to the board edge which tends to lose shots for a turn or more. 

3. PTrad allows the OSAs to not care about debris (besides 1/8) at all. Opens up the board to setting up killboxes opponents usually think they're safe from.

4. Even after performing the 2 Sloop or 4k, the OSA doesn't HAVE to perform a blue if all it wants is a focus. PTrad just requires the ship to not have more than 2 stress and it can still focus. One of the most open dials after a red maneuver in the game if all you want is a focus. 

5. OSA if they have same or lower initiative wingmates in the squad makes your opponent think twice on flipping the card crying "FAKE NEWS!" because there are other ships still to shoot. It forces the decision making on your opponent and as Heaver has mentioned many times, the more decisions you force your opponent to make, the more likely they'll make a mistake. This leads me to believe multiple PTrad ships are better than just one. Definitely not for a single ace. 

Edited by RStan

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21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Tie BA ramble, based on 4 hyperspace games ( Vonreg + 3 BA, Kylo Vonreg Rush, Holo +5, and Kylo Ember Scorch Backdraft ) 
Some obvious stuff but seems worth detailing: 

  • Offense/Defense: 
    • Lock focus gives you strain/deplete ( not you Holo ) 
    • Depleting at Range 1 if you cant init kill seems good
    • Cannot easily re-position if you want double mods 
    • Benefits greatly from setting up locks previous turns 
    • Only "one" focus token, instead of stack of purple calculates 
    • Even with focus lock you often won't want to spend that focus on offense 
    • Regen changes that choice slightly but I havent tried it yet 
    • Fanatical and Holo main ways in Hyper to improve token choices
    • Common to end up doing a Lock Boost ( think Fangs Focus Boosting but less durable ) 
    • You don't always have to chase the Lock Focus, its ok to just Focus like a normal ship 
    • Also Evade exists and its not even purple
    • Getting Blocked Actually Matters ( Weird ) 
  • Mobility: 
    • Roll + Boost = No Mods ( Also Weird )
    • Roll followed by Boost Only = More situations your dial needs to be correct
    • Gas Clouds are extremely helpful and still dumb 
    • 1 Blue Turns are incredibly useful but predictable, particularly 1 turn boost
    • 1 Blue Banks allow for slow rolling attack runs  
    • Keeping Deplete/Strain is sometimes necessary to disengage over 2 turns or k/sloop 
    • Prevents the lock or roll but still typically worth considering to nope out 
    • You dont have to do a blue just because you have deplete, 5 straight boost is pretty good  
    • Moving through obstacles and rolling or locking is pretty dumb 
    • Daredevil is "neat" for setting your dial more generically but not something I have tried yet 
    • It doesnt stress so it can actually K-Turn or Sloop but doesnt usually need to
  • Engage 
    • Ideally wants to set up on a flank to just focus/lock to victory
    • Important not to be to protective of the ship though there moments it simply has to deal with trading
    • Fragile ship, so often will "settle" for just trying to Trading shots/damage 
    • Some matchups where its offense will probably overwhelm an opponents list similar to what 7b Jedi do 
    • Think 7b Jedi without the token stack for defending against multiple shots and splitting calcs across off/def. So basically the 7b jedi comparison isnt a good one.
    • The Vonreg really benefits from Recycling Aces to generate flanks throughout the game
  • Pilots
    • i3s are actually very unique at 45 pts they feel like mobile budget fragile Braylen Mini Aces. A couple of these can bully other generics.  
    • Vonreg's Pilot ability actually kinda matters as a control element but I dont see myself chasing it as a strategy
    • Vonreg being i6 super definitely matters, I dont think Holo is strictly better in all lists
    • Ember can cause serious problems for single targets but a 2 pt difference to Holo is highly questionable 
    • Holo passing evade tokens to Kylo is something I want to Test 
    • Friendly Locking Holo on paper seems helpful but then you remember Kylo and Vonreg want to lock enemy ships 
    • I like the i3 BA and wish there was an i1 or i2 Tie BA 
    • Overall the Tie BA is actually a really cool ship that genuinely isn't good at everything it wants to do or everything we are used to doing with Soontir/7b/Vader/Whisper/Guri/etc. 
    • Its flaws make it interesting and doesnt automatically make it useless 

After only one game against Vonreg, I'm ready to declare my knee-jerk judgement in alignment with @Stay OT Leader that he's way more L'ulo than he is Soontir.  I don't see how he has any hope in Extended.

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5 minutes ago, RStan said:

1. SFs were brought for time on target with mods. OSA w/ PTrad is now doing that for cheaper via it's 2 sloops and 4ks. 

2. SFs tended to slowly drift away from the fight where as now the OSAs can now give chase potentially with even higher time on target than SFs. Eventually the SFs needed to sloop or 2turn when they started getting closer to the board edge which tends to lose shots for a turn or more. 

3. PTrad allows the OSAs to not care about debris (besides 1/8) at all. Opens up the board to setting up killboxes opponents usually think they're safe from.

4. Even after performing the 2 Sloop or 4k, the OSA doesn't HAVE to perform a blue if all it wants is a focus. PTrad just requires the ship to not have more than 2 stress and it can still focus. One of the most open dials after a red maneuver in the game if all you want is a focus. 

5. OSA if they have same or lower initiative wingmates in the squad makes your opponent think twice on flipping the card crying "FAKE NEWS!" because there are other ships still to shoot. It forces the decision making on your opponent and as Heaver has mentioned many times, the more decisions you force your opponent to make, the more likely they'll make a mistake. This leads me to believe multiple PTrad ships are better than just one. Definitely not for a single ace. 

1 and 2 are the one's that turn the lightbulb on for me. 

 

Playing in the squad builder helps too, seeing stuff like this

Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
Kylo Ren (76)    
Ship total: 76  Half Points: 38  Threshold: 3    
    
Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
"Longshot" (31)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 33  Half Points: 17  Threshold: 2    
    
Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 199    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZhZ200Z267X319WWY236XWWWY267X319WWY263X319WWY267X319WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

Or getting proud scorch/rivas as the last two also feels pretty solid, and i'm barely awake right now because a certain kitty really likes to face cuddle at 2 am and 5 am every morning, so i suspect there's even more that can be done with those points. 

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12 minutes ago, gennataos said:

After only one game against Vonreg, I'm ready to declare my knee-jerk judgement in alignment with @Stay OT Leader that he's way more L'ulo than he is Soontir.  I don't see how he has any hope in Extended.

I honestly have very few opinions on Extended. A huge number of ships do not have any hope in that meme format to begin with. Many if which cant do half of the good things the vonreg can. 

The BA isnt a jedi or soontir but it still is useful.

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11 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

1 and 2 are the one's that turn the lightbulb on for me. 

 

Playing in the squad builder helps too, seeing stuff like this

Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
Kylo Ren (76)    
Ship total: 76  Half Points: 38  Threshold: 3    
    
Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
"Longshot" (31)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 33  Half Points: 17  Threshold: 2    
    
Omega Squadron Ace (28)    
    Proud Tradition (2)    
    
Ship total: 30  Half Points: 15  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 199    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZhZ200Z267X319WWY236XWWWY267X319WWY263X319WWY267X319WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

 

Or getting proud scorch/rivas as the last two also feels pretty solid, and i'm barely awake right now because a certain kitty really likes to face cuddle at 2 am and 5 am every morning, so i suspect there's even more that can be done with those points. 

KNIGHTS OF REN GANG

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15 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Or getting proud scorch/rivas as the last two also feels pretty solid, and i'm barely awake right now because a certain kitty really likes to face cuddle at 2 am and 5 am every morning, so i suspect there's even more that can be done with those points. 

Image result for kitty face cuddle

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I honestly have very few opinions on Extended. A huge number of ships do not have any hope in that meme format to begin with. Many if which cant do half of the good things the vonreg can. 

The BA isnt a jedi or soontir but it still is useful.

Just seems like Vonreg can't outbid Imperials and they'll just dunk on him.

1 minute ago, catachanninja said:

It's called the "Zack and Chris special" sir 

It's call the "Zack didn't bring anything to play and borrowed Chris' stuff and requested to share dice but didn't want to use his own dice because they're Chris' and he was afraid he'd lose some but really he was just lazy and didn't want to get out dice but we had fun anyway" special.

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42 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

okay, maybe its early, but you're going to have to walk me through how OSA with proud tradition is good

 

40 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I dunno about good but FOs sometimes need to sloop or k turn to stay relevant or keep up with lists that do that with mods ( see rear arc turrets). Also FO dial is dope so red focus isnt a huge issue. Also if your opponent is spending mods to slightly annoy 30 pt omega they probably have other problems.

 

39 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Maybe I can guess before he says anything: taking that focus on sloop gives you a pseudo RZ2 level of time on target with mods for cheep.

 

29 minutes ago, RStan said:

1. SFs were brought for time on target with mods. OSA w/ PTrad is now doing that for cheaper via it's 2 sloops and 4ks. 

2. SFs tended to slowly drift away from the fight where as now the OSAs can now give chase potentially with even higher time on target than SFs. Eventually the SFs needed to sloop or 2turn when they started getting closer to the board edge which tends to lose shots for a turn or more. 

3. PTrad allows the OSAs to not care about debris (besides 1/8) at all. Opens up the board to setting up killboxes opponents usually think they're safe from.

4. Even after performing the 2 Sloop or 4k, the OSA doesn't HAVE to perform a blue if all it wants is a focus. PTrad just requires the ship to not have more than 2 stress and it can still focus. One of the most open dials after a red maneuver in the game if all you want is a focus. 

5. OSA if they have same or lower initiative wingmates in the squad makes your opponent think twice on flipping the card crying "FAKE NEWS!" because there are other ships still to shoot. It forces the decision making on your opponent and as Heaver has mentioned many times, the more decisions you force your opponent to make, the more likely they'll make a mistake. This leads me to believe multiple PTrad ships are better than just one. Definitely not for a single ace. 

hey, they beat me!

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

It's call the "Zack didn't bring anything to play and borrowed Chris' stuff and requested to share dice but didn't want to use his own dice because they're Chris' and he was afraid he'd lose some but really he was just lazy and didn't want to get out dice but we had fun anyway" special.

SAME

TEAM

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30 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I honestly have very few opinions on Extended. A huge number of ships do not have any hope in that meme format to begin with. Many if which cant do half of the good things the vonreg can. 

The BA isnt a jedi or soontir but it still is useful.

How dat FO Regen, tho? 

Should make BA/fo Ace builds in Extended way better, right? 

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