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Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast

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5 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

why is my advocation for less subjective language undesirable?

Practically speaking: Because it takes more words to say the same when it's largely the same audience here all the time. They know or pick up the meaning form the context. It is knowable. In this specific case it's also useful because the six letters contain a much more extensive concept. Which isn't difficult compared to 6 six letters, but hey, it's something.

Generally speaking, peeking behind the curtain: Groups very often create their own language and mannerisms to subconciously signal their affiliation. "Krayts" became a meme in itself, and "they" are responsible for everything bad under the X-wing sun (not an actual sun). I have no clue who is actually a real Krayt (not actual Krayt dragons, I liberally use it as shortcut for "Members of the Carolina Krayts X-Wing group and confirmed associates"), but I know about several regulars in this thread, myself included, that are most definitely not Krayts.

We use so much subjective language that I would like to know why you are so opposed against the usage of "bad" in that context.

Who actually feels better, the person who says "I feel good" or the person who says "I feel better"?

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

as worded, I cannot agree with the need for “bad aces”.

I'll bite anyway. If I understand @Boom Owl correctly, then the short explanation of ["bad" ace*] as expression is  something along the lines of:

"well balanced ace with restrictions that require meaningful decisions from the player(s)". Such a hypothetical ace (I call it "pink ace" for now. That's subjective language again) is considerably worse than current Anakin, Vader, Kylo, and other examples. That  makes a pink ace worse than these mentioned examples of Anakin, Vader, or Kylo. Compared to those, the pink ace is bad. A bad ace. Or ["bad" ace]. This ace is not, however, actually bad in the conventional meaning of the word when we compare it to the rest of the game. Then the pink ace is actually balanced. But calling the ["bad" ace] a ["balanced" ace]** is probably even worse. The reason for that is that percieved balance of the game and actual balance of the game are not the same. That makes "balanced" an incredibly subjective term and as such entirely useless for these discussions. Plus, easily misunderstood because everyone(tm) wants balanced aces. But nobody wants aces to be actually bad, as in "below the general power curve of the game". That somewhat frees up the term "bad" when talking about goals of game balance. Nothing should be bad, after all.

Hence ["bad" ace].

*and I'm not going to define ace here, that's a whole other beast. Not actual beast, just a metaphorical one.
**that's now another definition I just made. Note the brackets

23 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I heartily disagree that we “should want them to be bad”. I want them balanced. 

I don't know if it's actually disingenuous on your part, or if it was so confusing on my part. Giving you the benefit of the doubt: “should want them to be bad” was a shortened way to say:

It's the realization that we as players should want ships generally known as aces to have restrictions that require meaningful decisions from the players. Those restrictions allow FFG to leverage another balancing factor besides points (see for example Luke Gunner, which might only exist as either imbalanced or overpriced) by demanding decisions, and decisions always give the opportunity to make the wrong one.

And the second part "Being bad makes the game good.": This in turn leads to a better balanced game with a narrow power curve/spread and that in turn often leads to a more fun game where the card-game-aspect of list building matters less (not: none!) and choices during the game matter more (not: only!).

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

tldr:

giphy.webp

I don't know who is who, and at this point I'm too afraid to ask!

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55 minutes ago, svelok said:

as of print, Obi-Wan Kenobi is in 78.95% of Republic lists in post-worlds Grands (of which there are 9)

And this is a surprise, trading force to make allies 1st e Poe on Steroids?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Obi needs to go up before Republic gets 3 attack 3 agility clones. Sure, he's a blast to fly in casual, especially with allies carrying CLT or cluster missiles, but this fighter with jousty support is too efficient. He's by no means an NPE, given that he's a fun ship that doesn't give the feelsbads, but he immensely constricts Republic list building in the high ship count meta.

At least his ubiquity makes C1-10P more than relevant and dynamic in the mirror.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

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5 hours ago, Bucknife said:

@SabineKey

We love ya, bro. 

Just go grab a MonCal pizza and come back in a few. 

mypmh63arbq01.gif

I'm sure the topic when you return will have degraded into anarchy once again. ... Yay, Krayts. 

Did somebody say Anarchy?

Hey everyone, Wedge is still the best ace in the game!

 

*runs*

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5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Practically speaking: Because it takes more words to say the same when it's largely the same audience here all the time. They know or pick up the meaning form the context. It is knowable. In this specific case it's also useful because the six letters contain a much more extensive concept. Which isn't difficult compared to 6 six letters, but hey, it's something.

tenor.gif?itemid=15168206

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I've decided I really hate Composure.

If it's just the training wheels card, it's fine.  Maybe could even be 0 points. Insert "the cost is giving up the slot" BS that usually doesn't apply, but maybe might if it was just failure insurance so that you could take that "I don't know if this will fit" boost or roll and not hate your life.

Except, it isn't the training wheels card.  It's the "How can I exploit the Failed Action rules" card.  It basically demands to be used in the worst rules-lawyer-y ways.  I just don't think that's healthy.

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23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I've decided I really hate Composure.

636666800075177995.png?v=1

23 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Except, it isn't the training wheels card.  It's the "How can I exploit the Failed Action rules" card.  It basically demands to be used in the worst rules-lawyer-y ways.  I just don't think that's healthy.

636666800075177995.png?v=1

edit: I'm really hoping Vonreg pushes FFG to "fix" (banning via cost would be fixing) composure, and I'm really really hoping it happens before release and not 4 months after

Edited by svelok

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28 minutes ago, svelok said:

edit: I'm really hoping Vonreg pushes FFG to "fix" (banning via cost would be fixing) composure, and I'm really really hoping it happens before release and not 4 months after

I almost want massive errata on Composure.  Like, you can't have a lock in addition to not having green tokens, plus it'd give you the Advanced Sensors drawback of no other actions for your activation.  It'd still do what it's "meant to do" but hopefully couldn't really be exploited.  Kind of total overkill to pick Composure of all things for a massive errata, but still.

I guess a points-hike-ban works, but it'd make me a little sad.

31 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:
  • Sabine Shuttle
  • Vonreg
  • What else?

Technically, Sabine TIE fighter and also other TIE Barons, but *shrug*

Hera VCX with a docked Sheathipede can do silly things (if the rest of the squad is out of range 2, or if they can't be coordinated due to a spent-charge Passive Sensors), but it's got a silly price tag at that point.

Example: Hera (Composure, Advanced Sensors, Ghost), AP-5, Lothal Rebel (Passive Sensors, Saw).  Two double-mod Ghosts, and Hera gets Focus+Action before doing a red move.  Silly and no doubt bad-and-actually-bad and not just bad-but-actually-fair-thus-bad-in-comparison-to-unfair-stuff.

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14 hours ago, svelok said:

as of print, Obi-Wan Kenobi is in 78.95% of Republic lists in post-worlds Grands (of which there are 9)

Obi-Wan is so bad*

*Bad as in the power glove bad**

**Power glove bad as in how the kid in the wizard describes it (e.g. cool***, wicked****) not as in how it actually performed

***Cool as in slang (e.g. neat*****) not as in the temperature

****Wicked as in slang (e.g. awesome) not as in a descriptor of morality

*****Neat not used ironically as it colloquially is in this forum

Now where's my tea******?

*****Tea as in gossip, not the drink, I'm drinking coffee right now

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On 12/13/2019 at 10:56 PM, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

And this is a surprise, trading force to make allies 1st e Poe on Steroids?

I'm not sure about others, but how many people actually use Obi's ability that often? Most of the time he's there because he's Init 5 and has 3 force. 

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21 hours ago, jagsba said:

Now where's my tea******?

I have it in hand, thanks!

20 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

giphy.gif

He does it best to be sure.

1 hour ago, MegaSilver said:

I'm not sure about others, but how many people actually use Obi's ability that often? Most of the time he's there because he's Init 5 and has 3 force. 

It is simply icing on his massive, overly sweet cake.

19 minutes ago, Quack Shot said:

They don’t, you’re correct.

Funny thing is, they simply don't need too.... Obi is sick.

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23 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I've decided I really hate Composure.

If it's just the training wheels card, it's fine.  Maybe could even be 0 points. Insert "the cost is giving up the slot" BS that usually doesn't apply, but maybe might if it was just failure insurance so that you could take that "I don't know if this will fit" boost or roll and not hate your life.

Except, it isn't the training wheels card.  It's the "How can I exploit the Failed Action rules" card.  It basically demands to be used in the worst rules-lawyer-y ways.  I just don't think that's healthy.

 

I mean, it's not unique to composure.  Do you think 1.0 C3P0 was intended to be put on a 1 AGL ship for guaranteed evades by guessing 0?  In Warmachine Mk2 there was a once per game feat where a character could take 1-5 damage and the whole army got bonus ARM and STR equal to the damage...how many times do you think players didn't go for 5?

-

In the Malifaux 2ed playtest there was an ability called "Show you the door" wherein the model with the ability would move an enemy and then move next to them and the ability had a trigger where you could do a basic melee attack afterwards.  Clearly meant to shove enemies out of position and because it was itself an attack action, they got a chance to fight back.  Problem was that it didn't specify "enemy" and in Malifaux, you can totally attack allies, so you could charge your own model, and as both of your charge attacks use "Show you the door" to rocket both the model with the ability and another friendly model across the table an obscene distance with no chance of failure.  It mostly got fixed when I pointed it out, but it's the kind of weird thing where unless someone is actively trying to break the game, it's be easy to read the text and not immediately notice.

-

Too many things that are supposed to be interesting choices when the designers craft them are simply calculations for the player (see Vader Crew where he asks you if you want to take 1 damage or take 1 damage, or Vader pilot where there's almost never a reason to not force into a focus).  Getting the correct language, decisions (and timing windows in the case of escape pod finn) can be remarkably difficult especially if your playtest groups approaches the rules from designer's intent vs. best way to play it.

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Random Lists and how much "room" they have for the 2020 Points Reckoning: 

Republic: 

  • Ani + Obi + Plo ( 3x CLT ) = 34 Points 
  • 7b Obi + 7b Plo + Ric = 29 Points 
  • 7b Ani + Sense CLT Obi + Ric = 20 Points 
  • 7b Ani + Obi Clt + Plo Clt = 19 Points 

Empire: 

  • Soontir ( Predator ) + Grand Inq ( Sense ) + Duchess ( Fifth Bro ) = 37 Points
  • Soontir + Vader ( Burners ) + Grand Inq = 22 Points 
  • Jendon ( Title ) + 3 Concussion FCS TAPS = 21 Points 
  • RAC + Soontir + GI = 19 Points 
  • Soontir ( Predator ) + 3 Imdaars =  13 Points 
  • Soonitr ( Lone Wolf ) + Vader ( Passive Burners ) + Palp OGP = 12 Points
  • Vader ( Burners ) + Whisper ( Fifth Bro ) + GI = 9 Points 
  • Howl + Iden + Del + Hask + Wampa + ACD ( 2 copies of Swarm Tactics ) = 0 Points

First Order: 

  • Kylo + Tavson + Quickdraw Fanatical = 3 Points
  • Kylo + SF SF SF + Ep = 2 Points 
  • Quickdraw Fanatical + SF SF + EP EP EP = 1 Point 
  • Backdraft + SF SF SF SF SF = `1 Point 
  • Kylo + Longshot + 3 Omega Aces ( 4 crackshots ) = 1 Point 

Rebels: 

  • Lando ( Nien ) + Luke + Jake = 17 Points 
  • Lando ( Nien ) + Han ( Trick/R2/EU ) = 12 Points 
  • Lando ( Nien ) + Luke + Braylen = 2 Points 
  • Wedge + Jake + Braylen + Blount + Z = 1 Point 
  • Luke + Wedge + B B = 1 Point 

Resistance: 

  • Poe R4 Title + Rey ( Rose Finn Korr Title ) = 25 Points 
  • Tali + Greer + Zari + Blue + Blue ( 5x Optics ) = 7 Points
  • Poe + Lulo + Tali ( Optics ) + Greer ( Optics ) = 5 Points

Scum: 

  • Fenn Fearless + Boba Maul Slave 1 = 30 Points 
  • Torkil + Marauder (3x) + Seevor = 1 Point 

Separatists: 

  • 2x Ensnare Aces + Grevious = 19 Points 
  • Chertek + 7 Vultures ( No Struts ) = 18 Points 
  • Trip Ensnare Aces = 17 Points 
  • Sear TA175 + 7 Strut Vultures = 10 Points 
Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Random Lists and how much "room" they have for the 2020 Points Reckoning: 

Republic: 

  • Ani + Obi + Plo ( 3x CLT ) = 34 Points 
  • 7b Obi + 7b Plo + Ric = 29 Points 
  • 7b Ani + Sense CLT Obi + Ric = 20 Points 
  • 7b Ani + Obi Clt + Plo Clt = 19 Points 

Empire: 

  • Soontir ( Predator ) + Grand Inq ( Sense ) + Duchess ( Fifth Bro ) = 37 Points
  • Soontir + Vader ( Burners ) + Grand Inq = 22 Points 
  • Jendon ( Title ) + 3 Concussion FCS TAPS = 21 Points 
  • RAC + Soontir + GI = 19 Points 
  • Soontir ( Predator ) + 3 Imdaars =  13 Points 
  • Soonitr ( Lone Wolf ) + Vader ( Passive Burners ) + Palp OGP = 12 Points
  • Vader ( Burners ) + Whisper ( Fifth Bro ) + GI = 9 Points 
  • Howl + Iden + Del + Hask + Wampa + ACD ( 2 copies of Swarm Tactics ) = 0 Points

First Order: 

  • Kylo + Tavson + Quickdraw Fanatical = 3 Points
  • Kylo + SF SF SF + Ep = 2 Points 
  • Quickdraw Fanatical + SF SF + EP EP EP = 1 Point 
  • Backdraft + SF SF SF SF SF = `1 Point 
  • Kylo + Longshot + 3 Omega Aces ( 4 crackshots ) = 1 Point 

Rebels: 

  • Lando ( Nien ) + Luke + Jake = 17 Points 
  • Lando ( Nien ) + Han ( Trick/R2/EU ) = 12 Points 
  • Lando ( Nien ) + Luke + Braylen = 2 Points 
  • Wedge + Jake + Braylen + Blount + Z = 1 Point 
  • Luke + Wedge + B B = 1 Point 

Resistance: 

  • Poe R4 Title + Rey ( Rose Finn Korr Title ) = 25 Points 
  • Tali + Greer + Zari + Blue + Blue ( 5x Optics ) = 7 Points
  • Poe + Lulo + Tali ( Optics ) + Greer ( Optics ) = 5 Points

Scum: 

  • Fenn Fearless + Boba Maul Slave 1 = 30 Points 
  • Torkil + Marauder (3x) + Seevor = 1 Point 

Separatists: 

  • 2x Ensnare Aces + Grevious = 19 Points 
  • Chertek + 7 Vultures ( No Struts ) = 18 Points 
  • Trip Ensnare Aces = 17 Points 
  • Sear TA175 + 7 Strut Vultures = 10 Points 

When you say "room" on some of these lists.. some of these lists don't look like they even functionally work as lists without some upgrades.

 

I'd argue that the chertek swarm, without struts OR discords... doesn't really make sense as a swarm anymore? like, what's sort of the point? Also, you weirdly said the Sear swarm keeps struts (why does sear *need* struts, but somehow chertek doesnt?) Also, I suspect you'll find that sear actually *needs* soulless one to also have TA175...

Basically, I see what you did there, I appreciate what you did there, but I think you may have miscalculated some of the lists (and I only looked at seps).

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40 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Basically, I see what you did there, I appreciate what you did there, but I think you may have miscalculated some of the lists (and I only looked at seps).

I just removed stuff thats right on the edge of "absolute minimum" to see and discuss where/how they might compromise? Agree that struts, discords, soulless are all key to the Roger Rogers relevance. Rebels, FO, Resistance all seem to be operating near 200 already, CIS swarms to. Republic, Empire, and Boba Faction seem like they can handle substantial point increases without much issue. Separatists are weird, Sear Swarm is fragile since all the parts together are what make it work. The CIS Turret Aces....I have no idea whats gonna happen but they look like they have a decent amt of room to adapt like Republic/Empire. 

Obviously point decreases will matter to. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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