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13 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Most objective systems have (intentional) bias towards list archetypes inherent in the individual objectives. The solution is usually having a variety of objectives in the pool, each with different biases and then a selection system that is (at least partially) random or curated by a 3rd party. I haven't played Legion (yet) but their system is pretty cool - it's essential a random scenario generation with limited veto power built in for each player.

Balance is always going to be a complex mess but you would gain another lever to affect the meta since you'd then have the ability to tweak the objective set/objective rules to try and shift the meta

In my own opinion, that's the only way objectives work. If there's only one objective, you list build and exploit the objective in your favor.

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2 hours ago, Dr Moneypants said:

Predictability is comforting

I do not feel that way about death or taxes. 
 

However, it is very predictable that fans of anything in general will be grouchy about something on the internet. It’s a little bit of selection bias and a lot of “that’s just how humans are wired.” 
 

I have non-zero expectations for Rise of Skywalker next week. If I like it then you probably won’t know because I’ll be boycotting the internet. 

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1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

In my own opinion, that's the only way objectives work. If there's only one objective, you list build and exploit the objective in your favor.

^ this

At work this week I identified a system we could help clients game, and one of the guys I explained it to started laughing partway through when he realized how easy the metric was to distort. Nevertheless, it was a KPI for my last boss, so there’s bonus money in that kind of thing. 
 

I’ve come to appreciate why people try to break objectives in X-Wing more over time. I’m basically on hiatus until new points and Vonreg when people suddenly realize that there were good things hiding in plain sight and start to bring different ships. 

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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

In my own opinion, that's the only way objectives work. If there's only one objective, you list build and exploit the objective in your favor.

Don't tell them! Now the Aces High Crossroads side event on Sunday will be flooded with R2-D2 [crew] Shield Upgrade Norra's and Heightened Perception R5 astro Luke Skywalkers! Whatever will we do? Continue writing in this thread to help poison the party? Oh I hope that Lt. Tavson with Gonk isn't all that good in Aces High!...

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2 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

The real enemy is clearly modified 3 agility vs. 2-die attacks.  I know which one I want gone, do you?

3 agility in principle, but it doesn't work I think. I had a different reply already written but changed my mind because I like TiEs to have more agility than xwings. Fewer dice are more swingy. And some more problems.

I don't see how this is in any way a realistic change.

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20 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Don't tell them! Now the Aces High Crossroads side event on Sunday will be flooded with R2-D2 [crew] Shield Upgrade Norra's and Heightened Perception R5 astro Luke Skywalkers! Whatever will we do? Continue writing in this thread to help poison the party? Oh I hope that Lt. Tavson with Gonk isn't all that good in Aces High!...

Regen is kind of garbage in Aces high, so that's really not something I'd worry about.

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4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Interestingly enough, it's a list where the movement influencing upgrades are necessary, and the rest does not affect the way it's played too much. So, discussion can ignore listbuilding way more than other lists.

Is there a good place to discuss it? I've been practicing with Rey a lot and would like to see what others think. 

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

3 agility in principle, but it doesn't work I think. I had a different reply already written but changed my mind because I like TiEs to have more agility than xwings. Fewer dice are more swingy. And some more problems.

I don't see how this is in any way a realistic change.

not 3 agility, but modified 3 agility.  Soontir with focus + evade + Palp or Ani with force and focus / evade is different than a TIE fighter, or a generic interceptor.

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26 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Is there a good place to discuss it? I've been practicing with Rey a lot and would like to see what others think. 

not yet, at least not to my knowledge. Maybe @gennataos has a thread already? Or we could make one, either squadbuilding or battle reports. I would avoid the main forum for such focused discussions.

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

not 3 agility, but modified 3 agility.  Soontir with focus + evade + Palp or Ani with force and focus / evade is different than a TIE fighter, or a generic interceptor.

Heh, yeah, I was going to write that 3 agility is fine as long as it's single modified, and imo as long as there are just 3-4 HP behind it. Other criteria for me are no force (or working differently) and e.g. Fangfighters should have a different ability or just 2 agility. So, Interceptors, Awings, TAPs, Aethersprites, Scyks, Fangs, TIE fighters, FOs. They would be fine as long as they fulfill these criteria. Which is completely unrealistic that it will ever happen, even if (big if!) it should.

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1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

Not in the slightest.

Need I remind you that the most successful torpedo carrier was AdvS Redline? Basically a Supernatural Ace with 4 attack dice?

And effectively had force due to free focus-> lock every turn that was rarely blockable.

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

not yet, at least not to my knowledge. Maybe @gennataos has a thread already? Or we could make one, either squadbuilding or battle reports. I would avoid the main forum for such focused discussions.

@Flurpy - I’ve not made a thread on it because, for me, it’s kind of solved. I know the build I like, on which I’m unlikely to budge. Strategy/tactics can be talked about, but I find that really hard to do in a post, particularly without pictures. The biggest thing is, I’ve played it a LOT, and I don’t think it’s reliable enough (which is different than good enough) to win events. 

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59 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@Flurpy - I’ve not made a thread on it because, for me, it’s kind of solved. I know the build I like, on which I’m unlikely to budge. Strategy/tactics can be talked about, but I find that really hard to do in a post, particularly without pictures. The biggest thing is, I’ve played it a LOT, and I don’t think it’s reliable enough (which is different than good enough) to win events. 

Lets talk about Rey anyway :)

General Notes: 

  • Rey has Red Rotate, Red Boost, Red Sloop, Red Forward, 
    • Use Korr, Title, and Finn/Rose Tico. Ship plays 100% differently with those. 
    • Contraband Cybernetics and Engine Upgrade also exist but pts are precious 
    • Doesnt fit really but Leia Crew seems like a big deal for Rey if it gets cheaper. 
    • Also things that coordinate Rey are super helpful, resistance has alot of that stuff
    • Dial Peaking and just being i5 helps to so your not guessing at correct actions or over using stress. 
  • Things sometimes dont opt into Rey's forward arc of doom 
    • Part of why Rey is kinda interesting 
    • Avoiding unnecessary rotate actions is huge, like aces not opting into stress
    • Be better at setting up lanes/boxes so you dont have to rotate.
    • Play more VCX/Tavson to learn how to keep things in forward arcs with a big base 
  • Rey can take damage quickly
    • True, but she can also dish out damage very quickly with a 4 dice primary (with Finn), especially at Range 1. 
    • Also use boost and Arc Dodge, its good. 
  • Rey is super tanky against 1-2 shots in arc but vulnerable to more than that or shots out of arc
    • True, X-Wing is a 2 player game
    • Range Control seems genuinely important, defending from R3 in arc is a neat trick  
  • Rey is Expensive
    • She has a 4-5 Dice Gun, multiple arc coverage, rechargeable Guidance Chips, and 2 force. Thats pretty rare. 
    • Her Dial and Actions are a bit restrictive but upgrades mitigate almost all of those restrictions. 
    • In January some combination of Rose, Finn, Korr, Title (not all 4) will probably fit with Poe and a slightly better 3rd thing 
  • Rey gets bumped sometimes and cant take actions
    • Use the Force and bring Rose Tico Crew I guess 
  • Rey is Solid but not consistent 
    • Some current matchups for Rey are actually pretty much fine
    • The other tricky matchups even slight pt changes will help a ton with 

I only play Rey occasionally so notes are from very limited experience and over simplified in spots. Playing Rey well seems primarily to be about how good you are at keeping things in front of a big base using minimal repositions. Thats a learnable skill. Followed by your willingness to arc dodge with a boosty i5 rear arc ship instead of blindly jousting everything which Rey cant do ( can joust a ton of things just not everything ). Also obviously important to know how to play the ships around Rey which help considerably with keeping things in front of her and recognizing when its "ok" to just trade Rey.

Edited by Boom Owl

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1 hour ago, gennataos said:

@Flurpy - I’ve not made a thread on it because, for me, it’s kind of solved. I know the build I like, on which I’m unlikely to budge. Strategy/tactics can be talked about, but I find that really hard to do in a post, particularly without pictures. The biggest thing is, I’ve played it a LOT, and I don’t think it’s reliable enough (which is different than good enough) to win events. 

Nothing wrong with threads on "solved" squads, they're awfully nice for shining a light on some underappreciated or underused squads/list elements. @GreenDragoon's A-Wing thread did a great job at bringing the potential of RZ-2's to the surface, @Dalli's Hot Rod thread exposed a lot of people to the sort of antics the then-largely dismissed Decimator could get up to, etc. Even just getting some fresh opinions from beyond the Krayt thread has value (please don't ban me for uttering such heresy).

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4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Lets talk about Rey anyway :)

General Notes: 

  • Rey has Red Rotate, Red Boost, Red Sloop, Red Forward, 
    • Use Korr, Title, and Finn/Rose Tico. Ship plays 100% differently with those. 
    • Contraband Cybernetics and Engine Upgrade also exist but pts are precious 
    • Doesnt fit really but Leia Crew seems like a big deal for Rey if it gets cheaper. 
    • Also things that coordinate Rey are super helpful, resistance has alot of that stuff
    • Dial Peaking and just being i5 helps to so your not guessing at correct actions or over using stress. 
  • Things sometimes dont opt into Rey's forward arc of doom 
    • Part of why Rey is kinda interesting 
    • Avoiding unnecessary rotate actions is huge, like aces not opting into stress
    • Be better at setting up lanes/boxes so you dont have to rotate.
    • Play more VCX/Tavson to learn how to keep things in forward arcs with a big base 
  • Rey can take damage quickly
    • True, but she can also dish out damage very quickly with a 4 dice primary (with Finn), especially at Range 1. 
    • Also use boost and Arc Dodge, its good. 
  • Rey is super tanky against 1-2 shots in arc but vulnerable to more than that or shots out of arc
    • True, X-Wing is a 2 player game
    • Range Control seems genuinely important, defending from R3 in arc is a neat trick  
  • Rey is Expensive
    • She has a 4-5 Dice Gun, multiple arc coverage, rechargeable Guidance Chips, and 2 force. Thats pretty rare. 
    • Her Dial and Actions are a bit restrictive but upgrades mitigate almost all of those restrictions. 
    • In January some combination of Rose, Finn, Korr, Title (not all 4) will probably fit with Poe and a slightly better 3rd thing 
  • Rey gets bumped sometimes and cant take actions
    • Use the Force and bring Rose Tico Crew I guess 
  • Rey is Solid but not consistent 
    • Some current matchups for Rey are actually pretty much fine
    • The other tricky matchups even slight pt changes will help a ton with 

I only play Rey occasionally so notes are from very limited experience and over simplified in spots. Playing Rey well seems primarily to be about how good you are at keeping things in front of a big base using minimal repositions. Thats a learnable skill. Followed by your willingness to arc dodge with a boosty i5 rear arc ship instead of blindly jousting everything which Rey cant do ( can joust a ton of things just not everything ). Also obviously important to know how to play the ships around Rey which help considerably with keeping things in front of her and recognizing when its "ok" to just trade Rey.

I agree on everything, and for the record I run a super Thicc Rey. 

Finn, Rose, Korr, Sense, Stealth Device, Rey's Falcon and Contraband Cybernetics. 

Honestly I don't feel like any of those are redundant, Contraband keeps her running while she goes over the 2 stress threshold, Stealth Device Rey when in front arc is just not getting damaged. Period. And Sense because she is 115 points and bid room there is not. 

My main struggle is her wingmates. Stuff I tried is:

Greer/Tallie

Tallie/Lulu

Poe

Vennie

Han

Wexley/Greer

Cova/Finn

I feel there's something missing to all of them. 

 

**** it I'm making a thread after work. 

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23 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Finn, Rose, Korr, Sense, Stealth Device, Rey's Falcon and Contraband Cybernetics. 

Same, but I also tried heightened perception, which was rather nice against Soontir/Passive Sensor Vader.

That's what I meant: crew/gunner are logical inclusions, sense/SD/cc doesn't change how you play it, at least not much.

6 hours ago, gennataos said:

I’ve not made a thread on it because, for me, it’s kind of solved. I know the build I like, on which I’m unlikely to budge.

To me that's where the interesting discussion begins!

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I'm still not entirely sold on kor sella, she's basically there as crit insurance and she's expansive

The biggest issue is the wingmen thought, I've also tried a bunch of them and so far I enjoyed the most 2 t70s, either 2 ps 1 with bb or pava, who's bad but needed, and Bastian. 

Recently I'm fondling with cova and tallie and early tests were good: reliably engaging with rey with focus lock is good as having the chance to pre move boost

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Just now, Sunitsa said:

I'm still not entirely sold on kor sella, she's basically there as crit insurance and she's expansive

How? To me she allows me to boost/rotate/sloop several turns and then remove everything in the turn where you 1 straight/bank for the r1 shot or block.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

The biggest issue is the wingmen thought, I've also tried a bunch of them and so far I enjoyed the most 2 t70s, either 2 ps 1 with bb or pava, who's bad but needed, and Bastian. 

Recently I'm fondling with cova and tallie and early tests were good: reliably engaging with rey with focus lock is good as having the chance to pre move boost

I really liked Poe on his own, but the disadvantages of 2ship lists are apparent.

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Okay, I'll throw in.  Where to start?  I'm of the opinion that this is the baseline version of Rey.

Rey (73)    
    Korr Sella (6)    
    Rose Tico (9)    
    Finn (10)    
    Rey's Millennium Falcon (5)    
    
Ship total: 103  Half Points: 52  Threshold: 6    
        
Total: 103

If you drop any of those pieces, she's a different ship.  Either she isn't hitting as hard, as consistently or has to fly differently.  I would also argue that this is her at her most fun.  She can just about do whatever she wants.  Stress means little to nothing.  Korr allows her to do Rey/Kanan 1.0 shenanigans, where she can fly over a debris, gain stress from the debris as part of executing a maneuver, then promptly clear all stress.  I don't think Korr was intended to work that way with debris, but she does, so yay.  The title opens up her dial considerably.  Don't be afraid to leave stress on Rey and gain more stress with a boost if it dodges arcs or gives you good position.  Finn is self-evident.  Rose is dumb, super dumb with Finn.  The combo of these factors makes Rey, disregarding cost or survivability, possibly the most flat out mechanically broken 1.0-esque ship in the game.  I'm not sure where the tipping point is where she gets cheap enough to become a problem, but there is one.

Korr + Title means bringing debris, and I'd argue large debris.  Cluster as much of it loosely in the middle as your opponent allows, while also creating lanes.  Lanes can also include running straight over debris.  Exploit Korr + Title as much as you can, because you need that to make her unpredictable.  If your opponent brings asteroids, corner them on your side.  Try to do the same with clouds, because Rey will want to have freedom to boost as much as possible.  

I usually set up Rey somewhere inside cornered obstacles.  Setting her up in a corner generally means she'll be forced into a joust at some point, and that's not great.  The only time I'll consider a corner deployment is against 2-3 ship ace lists.  A lot of the time people will set up a "bait" ace across from her, followed by a typical hard turn in on the first move.  Surprise!  She can red 4-forward followed by a red boost and catch most of those aces unless they BR back toward their own board edge.  Most don't see that coming.  More typically, I try to ensure she can joust if it seems alright, but can also bail out to the inside, fast forward or to the outside.  

Range control on the initial engagement is everything with her.  Everything.  Not just for engagement, but for position the following turn(s).  You obviously want to keep her front arc on as many targets as possible, but that can be difficult to engineer and sometimes impossible.  Like most any other list, you want to delay your commitment as long as possible.  She might be the most ace-y large base in the game, even above Rebel Han, because she can punish over-commitment so hard.  Also, people don't see large base + boost very often and that speed can surprise them.  I'll do something like set up inside a cornered rock, laze my way straight up a lane, threatening a turn in for a joust, then sloop away the following turn.  If they're moving before me and they've over-committed on the threatened joust, I can boost in and really hurt something.  If they're moving before me and they've slow-rolled or they're moving after me, I can stay in place and keep my arc back and wide.  

Next to initial range control is positioning.  You have to avoid turning in corners.  You sometimes have to suck up a joust for better position the following turn.  Otherwise, you accept an "okay" joust and have nowhere to go the following turn.  Don't fall too in love with the sloop, don't assume every shot has to be from the front arc and don't assume you have to have a shot every turn.  She can be ace-y has ****.  Play for position, even accepting unanswered shots sometimes.  It's dangerous and feels bad, but sometimes it's necessary.  It's fine to have a stress or two and do a hard turn, maybe followed by a boost.  Even over a debris.  You can clear that stress later.  There's not always a safe place, but there is a "safest" place for her.  That might be a bump.  If you can sloop, virtually everyone expects that sloop and they're just deciding which direction.  But, what if you just 1-forward and bump?  

Sometimes, rotating the arc is necessary.  I avoid it, I'd rather try to boost for a back arc shot, but in the mid-late game, it can make a big difference.  If you're finding yourself doing it regularly, I'd say you're doing it wrong.  If you're going to do it, consider the following turn(s) and how that arc rotate would impact that following turn(s).  I will say that most don't expect an arc rotate, which you might be able to exploit, particularly if you already have a lock from Rose on a certain ship close to death.

Loadouts, that's subjective.  I've found Stealth Device is hilarious and awesome against 2-die shots, less so against 3-die.  If they get full paint, there's a decent chance you're losing it on the first shot.  That means you're getting a free lock with Rose, but...it just feels kind of "okay" a lot of the time.  If you're considering a Shield Upgrade, I'd take Stealth Device every time.  Contraband Cybernetics isn't necessary, IMO.  If you're finding yourself in situations where you need a boost action with 3+ stress, I'd argue you're doing it wrong.  So, if you're not doing that, then you're basically taking it for a focus action, one time...I don't think that's worth 3 points.  I like Heightened Perception right now because it makes aces pretty darn scared if they're thinking about it or is a great "gotcha" if they're not.  I started including it because I found her dying a lot to aces on that last shot to kill her, sitting right in her arc(s) and I hated it.

Wingmates?  I don't think the correct competitive one is out there yet.  I don't like the low initiative choices because they can't close out games.  Some combo/loadout of L'ulo/Tallie/Greer is probably the current best choice.  Greer/Tallie probably need prockets or you'll never hit 3-agility ships when (not if) Rey dies.  I have my own pretty obvious choice, which is probably the wrong choice, but I don't care.

36 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Is that the only part of Godfather 3 anybody actually knows?

Yes.

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