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7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok Matchup discussion time:

If 3 Epislon Tie FOs vs any given i5/i6 "Ace" is not at least a 50/50 was something designed wrong? 

From a game balance design perspective, maybe?  From a thematic perspective, no.  I'm watching a LOT of Clone Wars right now and, from what I see, a single Jedi could take on an entire swarm without too much of a problem.  ;)

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3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Ok Matchup discussion time:

If 3 Epislon Tie FOs vs any given i5/i6 "Ace" is not at least a 50/50 was something designed wrong? 

Different lenses to look through:

  • Points comparison: That's 3x26 = 78 points. Any given i5/i6 Ace can be between 53 and let's say 85 points
    • should be equal or in the FO's favor
  • Arc coverage comparison: three times independent 90° arcs vs one 90° arc
    • FO can hopefully ensure shots on every turn
    • eventually blanks will happen
    • should be equal or in the FO's favor
  • Action equivalents*:
    • depends on the Ace. Vader and Jedi can have more, others typically fewer.
    • can fall on either side
  • Offensive output: 3x2red dice, vs likely 1x3 red dice
    • Generally, few hard attacks are more favorable (or are they?) to overwhelm the defenses of a high agility ship. In that sense, the ace is favored.
    • But on the other hand, more attacks provide more opportunities for the defender to roll blanks
    • On top, the Ace is disadvantaged because it shoots and modifies first. In the case of simultaneous shots (i.e., not arcdodged) the ace is not favored
    • can fall on either side
  • Defense: 3x3 green dice and 3x4HP vs likely 1x3 green dice and 4-6HP. Plus FOs don't care much about losing any, whereas the ace can't afford any damage.
    • Clearly in favor of the FOs

E: Of course there are other ways to look at it, those were just examples. But 3 generic fighters should be able to win. Meaning, it should be slightly favored for them and not for the ace. More expensive aces should be able to make up for that and get a more equal fight. Of course that's completely ignoring e.g. how many points Anakin pays for being i6, points that are completely useless against i1 ships.

*which would be another important discussion. I nearly punched something when I heared a podcaster insist that SFs have amazing action economy because of the white rotate... But the concept could still be very useful! What we have to measure instead of how many actions you took is the amount of gained/lost shots, and how much they got improved, and how many times they could improve (e.g. 3x1 focus is not the same as 1x3 focus).

Edited by GreenDragoon

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

So its specifically not a points question. 

I don't see how.  78 points of generics losing to 80 points of Anakin?  But here's the rub- to the Epsilons, 63 points of Mace is just as tough to deal with.  Harder, in fact, if you assume there's a 17 point bid points locker.

So it's never a 1v1 comparison.  That's the whole point of having points.

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2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

I do agree though. Multiple generic fighters without upgrades should not be a "bad" list. 

multiple generic fighters (boom's just showing his FO bias with his example) should always have a chance against an ace.

Three vs an ace 'feels' like that's about the level where you've got the numbers to block or box the ace so it's a real game IF the ace is fair.

If I'm looking at some passive modding *cough* force *cough* ship and realizing i need 4 or more generics to hunt it down, that feels like ace design gone wrong

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It's helpful to look at what's NOT being played in a conversation about balance: 

-T65s less Wedge (are you kidding me? 3red primary + a Focus/Boost Linked Action? AND they can Regen? Don't even get me started on Luke).

-BTLA4 Y-Wings

-Proton Torpedoes

-M3A Interceptors

-Mining Guild TIEs less Seevor

-Any TIE Interceptor less Soontir

-Reapers (could they literally get any cheaper?...)

-

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8 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

It's helpful to look at what's NOT being played in a conversation about balance:

Jumpmaster

Scum falcon

YV-666

Scurrg

Quadjumper

TIE Bomber

TIE Aggressor

TIE Punisher

Auzituck

Sheathipede

VCX

YT-2400

Starfortress

 

PS: I should note, as a Scum player with a decent size ship collection: I play my M3-A Interceptors more than I do any of the above named scum ships, and the Quadjumper was what made me pick the faction in the first place.

Edited by Cerebrawl

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4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I would also be interest in talking about openings, rock selection&placement, ship deployment, which I consider to be intermediate - but it could be that it is rather simple, too. Something more advanced is maybe to identify the inherent strengths and weaknesses of a list in comparison to your own. And another topic I'm interested is how to identify and exploit mistakes in a sustainable way.

Honestly, all of these (especially the more nuanced Turn Zero discussions) are things that I think can never be discussed too much but generally don't get discussed nearly enough.

Incidentally this is why your blog being on hiatus is such a downer and why I get so excited when @Biophysical posts on his.

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34 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

M3A Interceptors

Oy! I’m trying. Not my fault the meta followers haven’t hopped on Drea M3A Rental.

35 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

T65s less Wedge (are you kidding me? 3red primary + a Focus/Boost Linked Action? AND they can Regen? Don't even get me started on Luke).

Also bizarre. Luke is great, just not as flashy as proper trained Jedi in their fancy smancy acey ships

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12 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Rebels don’t have Kenobi, and Rebel only players are common. Luke still not played.

Luke Lando+ 1, Luke Hera + 1, and some variations on Luke + Squad seems close to "ok" already. And of course D-Train. 

Really excited to see what rebels look like after the point change. 

Cool faction with some serious potential for a couple awesome lists without necessarily needing point decreases either. 

Luke Wedge BB and Luke Z Z Z Z Z Z are the first two ill look at. 

Its hard to imagine a timeline where Trip Jedi and Trip Empire aren't 100% dunking on everything still, but it might happen. 

New Year New Points. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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5 minutes ago, svelok said:

Luke - 62

7B Obi-wan - 66

It's also that Luke's alone, but Obi has all his Jedi buddies.  I have a feeling that Luke + Wedge + 2 something or other is going to be at least a "not have a miserable afternoon" sort of list, but it hasn't caught on.

Jedi are just so easy, why bother with something else?

58 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

-Reapers (could they literally get any cheaper?...)

Whenever @ClassicalMoser does their cost model based on performance, Major Vermiel always shows up better than the other Reapers.  When the model suggests price cuts for the others, Vermiel often stays put or even goes up in cost.

I think that pilot in particular is probably a sleeper solid ship--those red dice mods are nice.  I once had an opponent's Vermiel with Vader put FIVE damage into a blocked Anakin in a single round.  Dude is certainly great at cleaning up targets which end up in bad spots.

In some ways, Vermiel is a win-more ship.  He's best when you've already got an opponent at a disadvantage.  It's easy to write-off win-more stuff as useless.  In a card game like Hearthstone or MTG, folks might say "oh, that's a win-more card, so it's not good," but that can often miss something.  Win-more cards or effects help you turn a smaller advantage into an outright victory.  If you can use Vermiel to really lay out someone you've blocked, the game will probably end well for you.

//

Also, Reapers might be fun as... heavy filler?  A pair of Scarif Base Pilots plus a pair of Pocket aces like Soontir and Grand Inquisitor could be fun.

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5 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I hope third edition is more generous with limited, non-unique pilots. It feels like this would be a reasonable space to move into. 

And if they do I guarantee there will be people on page 2100 of this very forum complaining about how they have field at least six ships to be competitive, bemoaning the cost involved, and wishing for the good old days of double-reposition Jedi.

 

Just sayin

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9 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Agreed, but also the chassi is too cheap currently. TFD should probably be 21 or 22, with the struts being free.

I'm not sure where I fall on the drone-swarms-OP debate, but ... 22 points?  Struts, Networked Calc, and +1 point compared to +1 AGI and a much better dial?  (For clarity, comparing to the Academy TIE, which some people argue is overpriced itself.)

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16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I'm not sure where I fall on the drone-swarms-OP debate, but ... 22 points?  Struts, Networked Calc, and +1 point compared to +1 AGI and a much better dial?  (For clarity, comparing to the Academy TIE, which some people argue is overpriced itself.)

Should probably be 21, but yeah struts are really good, as is networked calc, and everything else they have access to for support(sear, ta175, etc). Drealok got Drea raised by 9 and loks raised by 3, in addition to raising VTG and turrets. This is a far smaller correction. I'd say let them live on 200 for sear+ta175, and 7 droids with struts, but I wouldn't be entirely averse to pricing sear out.

Note how the searswarm defenders in this thread aren't even mentioning the elephant in the room with searswarms: sear's ability to give the whole swarm crack shot on demand. The searswarm ideal joust scenario is pretty much lose 1 droid before shooting, shoot back with 6 shots modded by crack shot and up to double calculate(assuming some won't need/can't mod, others can double mod as needed), plus a focused sear.

In practice they might get 2-4 crack shot opportunities in the joust, but that's still pretty amazing. There's no way to build a non-droid list with 8 ships, where at least 6 have crack shot(scum is closest with 8 mining ties, half with crack shot).

Edited by Cerebrawl

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26 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Note how the searswarm defenders in this thread aren't even mentioning the elephant in the room with searswarms: sear's ability to give the whole swarm crack shot on demand. The searswarm ideal joust scenario is pretty much lose 1 droid before shooting, shoot back with 6 shots modded by crack shot and up to double calculate(assuming some won't need/can't mod, others can double mod as needed), plus a focused sear.

We're not mentioning sear because you argued for an increase in vultures, not sear. 


I think you'll find many of us suspect sear is a problem (I mean "sear" to be the "sear suite" - the combination of sear + TA175 + soulless one). That suite is very very likely underpriced, as is chertek. That's not the same as being mad at vultures though.

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I think Vultures are fine. 19 points is the right call for that chassis.

The problem with the faction as a whole is that breaks a lot of mechanics (free tokens, ignore obstacles, reposition outside the activation phase, etc.) making play against it a bit unfair when you have to do all the hard work and you are punished if you make mistakes.

The faction design, with all those things, has little margin between unplayable and overpowered, but I think that increasing the cost of certain upgrades (Ensnare, Vulture's Struts, Discord Missiles, Souless One and TA-175) the players have to make choices at listbuilding (taking more or better ships).

At this moment, CIS have numbers and tools, and there are a lot of options everywhere that seems very strong, but if they touch the TFD, the faction will suffer in excess because the Vultures are one of the pillars.

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2 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

I think Vultures are fine. 19 points is the right call for that chassis.

The problem with the faction as a whole is that breaks a lot of mechanics (free tokens, ignore obstacles, reposition outside the activation phase, etc.) making play against it a bit unfair when you have to do all the hard work and you are punished if you make mistakes.

The faction design, with all those things, has little margin between unplayable and overpowered, but I think that increasing the cost of certain upgrades (Ensnare, Vulture's Struts, Discord Missiles, Souless One and TA-175) the players have to make choices at listbuilding (taking more or better ships).

At this moment, CIS have numbers and tools, and there are a lot of options everywhere that seems very strong, but if they touch the TFD, the faction will suffer in excess because the Vultures are one of the pillars.

In that case: Struts to 2, Sear to 43 and TA-175 to 10. You can fit the whole sear+7 swarm, with struts and TA-175, but there's no wriggle room. Same result for that list. Sear is currently underpriced as well. Souless One is probably underpriced too, but is it a problem card with Grievous? I don't think ensnare Nantex + Grievous lists have really been getting the results everyone feared. Both the searswarm and nantex lists involve some measure of NPE though, I guess. The biggest one with the swarm is probably the "this game will end in 5 total rounds played" timer that it usually imposes(a really quick droid player might make it 6, under the 75 minute timer).

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40 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

In that case: Struts to 2, Sear to 43 and TA-175 to 10. You can fit the whole sear+7 swarm, with struts and TA-175, but there's no wriggle room. Same result for that list. Sear is currently underpriced as well. Souless One is probably underpriced too, but is it a problem card with Grievous? I don't think ensnare Nantex + Grievous lists have really been getting the results everyone feared. Both the searswarm and nantex lists involve some measure of NPE though, I guess. The biggest one with the swarm is probably the "this game will end in 5 total rounds played" timer that it usually imposes(a really quick droid player might make it 6, under the 75 minute timer).

I don't worry about Sear if I can kill that pilot as easy than two vultures. I can choose the target and take out the fundamental piece of the squad early.  My opponent must be more conservative and I have more engagement options.

The squad is still strong but not so easy to play well with it.

The CIS Ace Squad has a wide margin with its large bid and I think it's mostly unnaffected with the increase in the Souless One title.

If you choose to remove the struts to fit the Souless One title, you will move through obstacles with an interesting dial or maybe you would prefer to deploy one less ship. What is the right choice?

The objetive of the points adjustement must be balance squads and pilots (or promote unused cards if you need that), not remove entire squads or factions...

 

Edited by S4ul0
Another options

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3 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

 The biggest one with the swarm is probably the "this game will end in 5 total rounds played" timer that it usually imposes(a really quick droid player might make it 6, under the 75 minute timer).

I mean, Okay.

I see this fear perpetuated a lot. It might even be real. Call a judge if your opponent is slow playing you, but otherwise, you shouldn't be getting in 5 turns.

If it's a newer player, or a player newer to the list on a casual night, you can still prod them that they need to pick up the pace - swarms are not an excuse to slow play people.

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3 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

 The biggest one with the swarm is probably the "this game will end in 5 total rounds played" timer that it usually imposes(a really quick droid player might make it 6, under the 75 minute timer).

Not remotely close to reality, and I speak as someone who predominately plays aces. 

 

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