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12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Fair, but as I read your logic, it seems to also make the idea of Swarms likewise problematic. Do you think the TIE Swarm has a place in the game? And if yes, why?

From my own perspective, I don't have a problem with Swarms because Swarms aren't perennially underpriced, and when they are, they typically get points adjustments.  Furthermore, points adjustments are a great way to balance them because their strength is efficiency, which is directly related to points cost.  

Aces typically have both efficiency and maneuverability advantages, and are relatively harder to balance because it's so dependent on matchup and bid.  The ability to reposition with a lot of information has not historically been well balanced by FFG, so to me, a limit of 1 is a check on unbalanced maneuvering abilities. 

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Just now, Kieransi said:

no I don't like it

Vader + miniswarm, very cool, I like it. 

Full swarm? gross

Fair. I respect consistency.

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

From my own perspective, I don't have a problem with Swarms because Swarms aren't perennially underpriced, and when they are, they typically get points adjustments.  Furthermore, points adjustments are a great way to balance them because their strength is efficiency, which is directly related to points cost.  

Aces typically have both efficiency and maneuverability advantages, and are relatively harder to balance because it's so dependent on matchup and bid.  The ability to reposition with a lot of information has not historically been well balanced by FFG, so to me, a limit of 1 is a check on unbalanced maneuvering abilities. 

Which is part of the reason I commented on your suggestion. I don’t think it actually fixes any of the problems you’ve listed here.

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1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Fair. I respect consistency.

Which is part of the reason I commented on your suggestion. I don’t think it actually fixes any of the problems you’ve listed here.

So forcing people to take a single unbalanced thing instead of a whole squad's worth of unbalanced things wouldn't help?

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2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

So forcing people to take a single unbalanced thing instead of a whole squad's worth of unbalanced things wouldn't help?

Depends on your point of view. For me, its looks like a bandaid for your troubles with the game, not actually fixing anything, just covering it up. Moving it. Sure, a list with Obi and Plo gets shafted, but I can still take Obi and Mace, plus still have over 50 points to work with. And, you’ve altered the field, making Mace a better buy because there are going to be less out there that can out-initiative him. 

So, you are suggesting a rather large change to the game that fundamentally changes how people make lists and the result is, at least from my POV, a partial “fix”. Sure, I suppose I would have to describe it as help, however I have serious doubts whether the result will be worth the effort. 

As I said to @GreenDragoon, if we are talking more an alternate format that isn’t the only way to compete, then my concerns are unnecessary. In fact, I welcome more shall we say clearly defined alternatives in format. Variety is the spice of life and all that. (Speaking of which, I need to poke a local organizer to see if we can do another Generics Only tourney.) And with actual testing and experience with it, maybe I come around to your point of view. Don’t know. All I know now is I have concerns about effectiveness and a rebellious streak that’s not particularly interested in being forced to do anything I’m unconvinced of. 

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6 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

How about these three fives (pint game let's say):

Rexler Brath (81)
Juke (7)

“Whisper” (57)
Juke (7)

Maarek Stele (46)
Predator (2)
Total: 200

It's legit. Back when you could fit composure and afterburners on Maarek in that setup, I went 4-2 with it at Adepticon. But that was before the Jedi.

If you want Palp Aces, a deluxe Lone Wolf Adv Sensord Rex, a decent Crack Passive Maarek, and Palp all fit.

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5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

What if there was a rule that said you had to take two ships less than i5 for each ship i5+?

I'd kind of prefer for each ship i4-, you can bring one 5+.  This would allow the Torrential-style 2 Ace + 2 Filler style, which I think is kind of cool.  Or 2 pocket aces, and 2... heavy filler?

//

As to letting folks play what they like, many miniatures games don't.  Guild Ball is 1 Captain, 4 Squaddies, 1 Mascot.  The various Warhammers have caps on which kinds of units you can take.  Warmahordes always starts with 1 Warlock/Warcaster, and they all provide some number of points which can only be spent on Warbeasts and Jacks, so you can't go entirely without those.

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30 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd kind of prefer for each ship i4-, you can bring one 5+.  This would allow the Torrential-style 2 Ace + 2 Filler style, which I think is kind of cool.  Or 2 pocket aces, and 2... heavy filler?

I get behind this, but maybe i3- for one i5+.  i4 can just be there, since i4's are still pocket aces most of the time.

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55 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

//

As to letting folks play what they like, many miniatures games don't.  Guild Ball is 1 Captain, 4 Squaddies, 1 Mascot.  The various Warhammers have caps on which kinds of units you can take.  Warmahordes always starts with 1 Warlock/Warcaster, and they all provide some number of points which can only be spent on Warbeasts and Jacks, so you can't go entirely without those.

And yet we’re talking about X-Wing, which doesn’t have that. And I picked X-Wing over those other options. 
X-Wing already has limitations. Limitations I can agree with. And if my concerns about this kind of restrictions being suggested can be properly accounted for, maybe it will grow on me. As is, I don’t think it is value for money.

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45 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

I get behind this, but maybe i3- for one i5+.  i4 can just be there, since i4's are still pocket aces most of the time.

Yeah, I'm not wedded to any specific limitation, just some kind of barrier between "just take 3 of the most unbalanced things" is good.  I4 not counting seems cool because it gets around Echo, Mace, etc. unlocking the good stuff.

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13 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

By the way, I put a Corran/Kyle/Wulff list onto the virtual mat. The list needs some more points and I suspect that January might bring the 4-6 it needs.

Does Corran prefer Afterburners (like Vader) or does he prefer Hull/Shield to up the threshold by one?

If you are going regen with Corran, I’d take spare parts. Not only for the “extra shield”, but dropping the li’l debris on higher Ini aces is really cool too. 

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52 minutes ago, RoockieBoy said:

If you are going regen with Corran, I’d take spare parts. Not only for the “extra shield”, but dropping the li’l debris on higher Ini aces is really cool too. 

Don't forget that rebels have access to R2-D2, for just one additional point. That's IMO an autoinclude.

I was going to write about the advantage of the extra hull/shield, but... as long as corran lives, he can always regen above points threshold with R2-D2, even without the extra HP. Hm..

E: I'd still prefer the extra charge from r2d2 for 1pt over the 4 from canisters. Especially because it allows for afterburners

Edited by GreenDragoon

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9 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I'm not wedded to any specific limitation, just some kind of barrier between "just take 3 of the most unbalanced things" is good.  I4 not counting seems cool because it gets around Echo, Mace, etc. unlocking the good stuff.

Yeah, the more I think about it, something that encourages more 4s could be really interesting.  Back to the original 1:2 ratio, it becomes unrealistic to have 2 i5+ aces, so i4s become more tempting.  Also, i4s get better when you know your opponent is only going to have a single i5/i6.

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9 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And yet we’re talking about X-Wing, which doesn’t have that. And I picked X-Wing over those other options. 
X-Wing already has limitations. Limitations I can agree with. And if my concerns about this kind of restrictions being suggested can be properly accounted for, maybe it will grow on me. As is, I don’t think it is value for money.

Fair.  Mostly I was just pointing out that a restrictions like this are fairly common.

//

Say... what if a restriction like this was one thing which separated Hyperspace from Extended?  Maybe one format had a "no more than half i5+" restriction, but the other format didn't?  That'd create some really different looking lists in the different formats.

Suppose Extended had all the ships, but you had a list-building restriction around initiative.  Hyperspace has the curated pool of ships, but players could build to any structure.  That'd really create a reason for two formats to exist.

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Im still in favor of changing force charge rules so they dont work while blocked/obstacled/stressed and require a focus action to regen. Point costs might still have to increase but much less aggressively. After that address ensnare/regen and see how things end up. 

That would give a massive boost to every lists matchup against Trip Empire and Republic force aces without requiring fun destroying costs. More in game constraints basically. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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I wasted a bit more thought on Corran.

  1. Adding an extra hull/shield has two effects on Corran: it a) delays the moment when he has to regen and it b) allows him to waste one fewer turn on regenerating because the extra HP in a sense already did that.
  2. Using R2-D2 instead of R2 has the effect that Corran can (and probably will) go down to a point where he has to regen all 3 shields.
  3. And finally, being Corran has the effect that those precious regen turns (3 out of often 7-9! Even if it goes to 12, that's a quarter of your combat turns!) are not wasted as they are for most other regenerating ships. Plo is the other exception, but his pulled disarm does not simply vanish. The one of Corran in a sense does because he can have the full number of possible in a game shots while also regenerating 3 shields.

So everything together means:

  • Corran does not actually waste turns of shooting when using regeneration, given the fact that he can do double taps
    • as consequence, he does not need the extra hull/shield as much as others. I.e., he doesn't benefit as much
  • R2-D2 makes full point regeneration always possible
    • as consequence, Corran does not need spare parts or an extra shield from this point of view

That would point to a 82pt Corran with Crackshot, FCS, Afterburners, and R2-D2, or 86pt with Lonewolf instead of Crackshot.

As first wingman he seems to do well with anything tossing him a Focus so that he can do repo+lock or evade. Benthic with perceptive (and Leia), Kyle with Moldy (and Leia) are 61 and 60pt, respectively. Jake is not as feasible because he allows a focus action instead of transferring one. Kyle can do it at larger distance, even after bumping or getting stressed or other ways of losing actions, and also has a 180° arc. Benthic has more HP and the 90° rotation bs. I'd rather go for Kyle.

As second wingman, I'd add something that hits really hard, is a real fire magnet, and allows Corran to get quickly into the endgame where it's him (and Kyle/Benthic) against few others. At this point we're at a total of 146-142 points and have the rest to add such a glasscannon. That could of course be Wedge, or Braylen (reroll+focus is neat), Dutch to toss locks and maybe fire a torpedo. Or, hear me out, Wulffwarroo! He has a surprising 58% win rate in just 19 matches. He with a targeting computer, also getting fokus tokens from Kyle, and a trickshot on top can easily get 4 dice, but getting 5 is not that rare. Double modified. Of course he will only do that 2-3 times per game before the is burnt down. But that might be what Corran needs!

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Spare Parts are fun on Corran with Coordinate or Airen. They actually make Rebel Fenn worth the cost of I6 coordinate.

Snap on Airen makes Corran less reliant on Jake or Coordinate, ironically enough.

E Wings are workable, and afterburners might still be the best mod for non-Adv Sensor R4 Daredevils, but they are still way too dependent on friends for their role of Superiority Fighter. Compare to:

TIE/D: Literally the most Lone Wolf and the best token stacker in the game. Everything the E wants. Big F in the chat bois.

Starviper: Very mobile and can diet Kylo. Knife fights like an action hero. Wait, your hard 1's are RED? Hahaha

T70: great value, but Snap, Nien, and Poe can up the action efficiency with cool tricks. Also, tech slot/hard point >>> sensor/torpedo. I'm sorry, but Nien is beyond cool compared to Corran. Also, Debris Gambit Poe panic-turtles waaaaay better than Corran does. But he doesn't need to with Black 1! Also BB8 in faction is one of the best pre-move shenanigans.

TIE/vn: At low levels, essentially a T65 with better actions and a bonus agi for 9 pt. At high levels, an Interceptor with double health, tech slot, and both munitions. Also often force. The E Wing is a what fighter again? lol

Delta7: a Jedi Interceptor that has a load of pilots, 2 configs, and can mod dice after double repositioning. Can turtle better than a solo E. This is worth far more than a sensor and torpedo slot and it shows.

FFG: stop trying to sell us the E as a Superiority Fighter. It is not. You're giving the B a config, so might as well do it to this or just make a new ship that actually allows rebel aceplay and not be boring. Or....Luke flew one of these things, ya know... 

 

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4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Don't forget that rebels have access to R2-D2, for just one additional point. That's IMO an autoinclude.

I was going to write about the advantage of the extra hull/shield, but... as long as corran lives, he can always regen above points threshold with R2-D2, even without the extra HP. Hm..

E: I'd still prefer the extra charge from r2d2 for 1pt over the 4 from canisters. Especially because it allows for afterburners

Definately. My problem at that time was that R2-D2 was on board the Falcon...

P.S. In the last tournament I played, I brought R2-D2 AND spare parts... I used all my regen charges in more than half of my games 

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STOP TAKING FCS E-WINGS

FCS says 'Save your locks but make them worse
E-Wing ship ability says "get free locks every disengage"
E-wing linked actions say "Get a lock whenever you reposition"


2 things that should make you more willing to spend a lock, and a thing for when you don't spend 'em is not a good mix.

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