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11 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Thanks for this discussion, guys, genuinely.  At first I was just kind of rolling my eyes and thinking, "Oh, this again".  Then I started fiddling with YASB.  If I can manage to not include my Poe, I can do some cool stuff.

 

**** it and here I am finally trying to put Poe somewhere since he's the only one I haven't played.

 

So something like Poe/Cova/Greer/Finn or Poe/Pava/Bastian/Finn isn't an option?

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19 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Thanks for this discussion, guys, genuinely.  At first I was just kind of rolling my eyes and thinking, "Oh, this again".  Then I started fiddling with YASB.  If I can manage to not include my Poe, I can do some cool stuff.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

**** it and here I am finally trying to put Poe somewhere since he's the only one I haven't played.

 

So something like Poe/Cova/Greer/Finn or Poe/Pava/Bastian/Finn isn't an option?

Remember comparisons like these?

Poe Dameron w/ R4 and Black One = 72 pts

Darth Vader w/ Afterburners = 73 pts

tenor.gif

Makes Poe sad...

Edited by RStan

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Just now, RStan said:

 

Remember comparisons like these?

Poe Dameron w/ R4 and Black One = 72 pts

Darth Vader w/ Afterburners = 73 pts

tenor.gif

**** it does it look depressing written out like that. Oh well I'll put it on for casual games so I'm practice ready for when and if he drops in January. 

 

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1 minute ago, Flurpy said:

**** it does it look depressing written out like that. Oh well I'll put it on for casual games so I'm practice ready for when and if he drops in January. 

I'd assume/hope Vader and other pesky force users go up more so than Poe dropping. 

Edited by RStan

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15 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

**** it and here I am finally trying to put Poe somewhere since he's the only one I haven't played.

So something like Poe/Cova/Greer/Finn or Poe/Pava/Bastian/Finn isn't an option?

Plenty of Poe stuff is viable, but you already arrived there...

17 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

**** it does it look depressing written out like that. Oh well I'll put it on for casual games so I'm practice ready for when and if he drops in January. 

I keep rolling that boulder uphill, but I don't recommend it.  It wears on the soul.

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31 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

So something like Poe/Cova/Greer/Finn or Poe/Pava/Bastian/Finn isn't an option?

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Plenty of Poe stuff is viable, but you already arrived there...

What about a Poe/Greer/Rose base? That leaves 59 points for something. 60 if you remove the crack from Rose. Of course always knowing that you are already on a subpar path.

Speaking of, doesn't ferrosphere paint look very tempting? Somehow it has the highest win rate of all tech upgrades at the ridiculously small sample size of 4?

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1 minute ago, RStan said:

Cova w/ Leia slots in at 57. 

Yep, she's an option. Nien with PA is 60, also possibly an option (and he should then get the title I guess). Bastian of course, he'd leave 10 points after filling in crackshots, or a thicc Lulo.

But it feels like none of them go well together. I like Bastian most with these others. Or of course switching to Finn and going with Cova. Because I actually do acknowledge that Cova+Finn is a better pair than Cova+Rose. But me and Cova... yeah...

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21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What about a Poe/Greer/Rose base? That leaves 59 points for something. 60 if you remove the crack from Rose. Of course always knowing that you are already on a subpar path.

Speaking of, doesn't ferrosphere paint look very tempting? Somehow it has the highest win rate of all tech upgrades at the ridiculously small sample size of 4?

I dont think Rose likes Greer and Poe, since she needs friends in arc and those two should be off flying far away. But yeah Resistance list building feels a bit like Scum at the moment, it has a nice variety of decent ship but they dont really gel together that well or all the nice builds that exist are at the 201-205 range. That being said Leia Cova, standard Poe, 41 Greer and cheap Finn are a **** of a lot of fun to fly in Fly Causal, so at least it will be decent practice for causal matches.

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

The other competitions are blount and wampa, unless I'm missing one.  Everyone agrees these are ballparks away in terms of 'value', right?

By the way, just saw on reddit that SOTL calls the epsilon cadet "probably the best filler ship in the game."

At 26pts. Maybe he doesn't count Finn and Rose as fillers?

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14 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What about a Poe/Greer/Rose base? That leaves 59 points for something. 60 if you remove the crack from Rose. Of course always knowing that you are already on a subpar path.

Speaking of, doesn't ferrosphere paint look very tempting? Somehow it has the highest win rate of all tech upgrades at the ridiculously small sample size of 4?

If I don't go down the BB-8 path, I might as well not go down the Poe path at all.  If I flipped to an R4 version (or whatever) of Poe, in the current meta, I'm still pushing a boulder uphill.  It's probably a smaller boulder, but I'm still trudging uphill.  

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2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If I don't go down the BB-8 path, I might as well not go down the Poe path at all.  If I flipped to an R4 version (or whatever) of Poe, in the current meta, I'm still pushing a boulder uphill.  It's probably a smaller boulder, but I'm still trudging uphill.  

Haha I had put in BB8 Poe+PT in there* because I thought of you. It works just so with Lulo

e: *when I was clicking around for options before I posted

Edited by GreenDragoon

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8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Haha I had put in BB8 Poe+PT in there* because I thought of you. It works just so with Lulo

e: *when I was clicking around for options before I posted

Get out of my squad builder!  I do kind of dig this idea.

I actually like Tallie more with a list like this because the initiative does seem to matter more than the time on target of Greer.  Don't really know why.

Edited by gennataos

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'll start with this: it is a similar discussion to the Cova+Leia. I'm not saying Finn is bad. I disagree with the idea that he is outstanding, that he is a no-brainer inclusion, that he is "an extremely good core", or that he is (with cova) "probably the best non awing resistance ships by a wide margin right now."

And as always in 2.0, please keep in mind that I still subscribe to the notion that most ships are ok at the moment, and that the performance differences between different ships are close enough to not matter too much. There are again more and more exceptions, mainly aces, and mainly force users.

So, I don't say he's not worth it. I say that he is not as good anymore as some seem to think.

Fair. And I would also like to clarify I don’t view Finn as a core to build around. He’s a filler ship, particularly with just Heroic. He’s there to support your main attraction, whatever role the enemy lets him be. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

Is he more autonomous? In theory sure, but does it matter in practice? As such my answer is: depends on the rest of the list. I recently tried one with Snap, FatFinn, Rose and 2 Awings. And there Rose did better because she always had her rerolls.

Why is he not? Like I’ve pointed out, Rose’s ability requires teammates in the right position. In the hypothetical situation where she is the last of your ships alive, she effectively has no ability. Where as Finn’s ability has absolutely nothing to do with how the rest of your team acts. So, while both are reliant on the rest of the squad because they are low Initiative and low health ships, Finn requires less help to do his thing. 

I do agree the rest of the list is a variable to consider. But, like the old Vessery vs PTL Ryad debate, one requires more consideration in how the list is built than the other.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

Yes, absolutely. I'd like to ditch Finn for something else (Jess Bastian Rose and 2x Blues, but that's 201)

 

I was a little unclear on this question. I meant for the options listed to be your entire pool. No pods, no transports, and no T-70s. It is a super limited question, but I want to gauge how comfortable you are in getting full value out of Rose.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's a very open question. Can you specify a bit more what you're thinking about?

My starting point is there is a difference in feel between Rose and Finn. I guess I want to know how much you have considered this when trying to understand the love Finn has from others. I’m also curious how that difference in feel has affected your own perception of both pilots. 

(Sorry if this isn’t better, I’m writing on the fly.)

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Only Heroic Finn? None. A lot into 42 and 43pt Finn.

In that case concerning Heroic Finn, I’d like to recommend the old wisdom of “if you don’t understand something, fly it”. See what you can apply from what people have said about him. And whatever your findings are, you have more data in either direction.

While I am making this recommendation, I do also wish to acknowledge limited time and desire. There are plenty of things I’ve been meaning to put on the table to try to understand, but because of my schedule, I find I lack the motivation to play anything that doesn’t directly speak to me.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'll start with this: it is a similar discussion to the Cova+Leia. I'm not saying Finn is bad. I disagree with the idea that he is outstanding, that he is a no-brainer inclusion, that he is "an extremely good core", or that he is (with cova) "probably the best non awing resistance ships by a wide margin right now."

And as always in 2.0, please keep in mind that I still subscribe to the notion that most ships are ok at the moment, and that the performance differences between different ships are close enough to not matter too much. There are again more and more exceptions, mainly aces, and mainly force users.

So, I don't say he's not worth it. I say that he is not as good anymore as some seem to think.

Is he more autonomous? In theory sure, but does it matter in practice? As such my answer is: depends on the rest of the list. I recently tried one with Snap, FatFinn, Rose and 2 Awings. And there Rose did better because she always had her rerolls.

Yes, absolutely. I'd like to ditch Finn for something else (Jess Bastian Rose and 2x Blues, but that's 201)

That's a very open question. Can you specify a bit more what you're thinking about?

Only Heroic Finn? None. A lot into 42 and 43pt Finn.

So far 2/0 for the 2 games I tried. That is to say, not far. But I don't see how my personal success determines whether Rose is any good or not. I'm quite the scrub after all ;)

I asked that less as a concrete way to determine Rose’s value and more to just get a feel of your experience with her. While I have been somewhat critical of her in my examples, I do not mean to imply she is bad. I do think she’s an interesting option with some solid applications in the right squad. 

While 2 successes is a small data set, it’s still a good start. I would be happy to hear more reports on your efforts with her going forward. Perhaps I’m giving her too little credit.

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3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Why is he not? Like I’ve pointed out, Rose’s ability requires teammates in the right position. In the hypothetical situation where she is the last of your ships alive, she effectively has no ability. Where as Finn’s ability has absolutely nothing to do with how the rest of your team acts. So, while both are reliant on the rest of the squad because they are low Initiative and low health ships, Finn requires less help to do his thing. 

I do agree the rest of the list is a variable to consider. But, like the old Vessery vs PTL Ryad debate, one requires more consideration in how the list is built than the other.

I think it's a bit of an irrelevant hypothetical because all the discussion anyway only matters if you build a what @Boom Owl likes to call "logical list". Maybe Finn fits into more lists because he is less reliant on others. For example as noted here I fully agree that Finn + Cova is better than Rose + Cova because Rose likes to have someone close and in front of her - where Cova clearly doesn't want to be because of higher initiative and her wanting to stop/reverse. And I don't think an endgame with either of the two is relevant (or is it @Flurpy???)

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I was a little unclear on this question. I meant for the options listed to be your entire pool. No pods, no transports, and no T-70s. It is a super limited question, but I want to gauge how comfortable you are in getting full value out of Rose.

Hm. I could see a YT Pod Awing list work to some degree. I have next to no experience with the starfortress. Why do you think that limiting to those options means to get full value out of Rose?

15 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

My starting point is there is a difference in feel between Rose and Finn. I guess I want to know how much you have considered this when trying to understand the love Finn has from others. I’m also curious how that difference in feel has affected your own perception of both pilots. 

I mean, I was one of the early birds on Finn. I'm responsible for the stupid archetype name on metawing. You can watch my game against Dion from Euros on stream. I was always very open about how ridiculous the initial rules were, and I've spent too much time both defending and badmouthing Finn. So yes, I'm coming from a place where Finn's position in the game was never fully accepted, and that likely affects my way of seeing him.

23 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

In that case concerning Heroic Finn, I’d like to recommend the old wisdom of “if you don’t understand something, fly it”. See what you can apply from what people have said about him. And whatever your findings are, you have more data in either direction.

While I am making this recommendation, I do also wish to acknowledge limited time and desire. There are plenty of things I’ve been meaning to put on the table to try to understand, but because of my schedule, I find I lack the motivation to play anything that doesn’t directly speak to me.

I agree and I agree. I only play very selectively by now, with some few people and games that I can expect to be interesting. It's not that I want to make Resistance work in some form. More that I enjoy Awings a lot, and somehow T70s have this strong allure on me. Pods are more of a (necessary?) means to make the other two ships work a bit better.

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16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think it's a bit of an irrelevant hypothetical because all the discussion anyway only matters if you build a what @Boom Owl likes to call "logical list". Maybe Finn fits into more lists because he is less reliant on others. For example as noted here I fully agree that Finn + Cova is better than Rose + Cova because Rose likes to have someone close and in front of her - where Cova clearly doesn't want to be because of higher initiative and her wanting to stop/reverse. And I don't think an endgame with either of the two is relevant (or is it @Flurpy???)

I prefer to focus on the nice chocolate in that picture, and not the disastrous mess I made of that end game thank you very much.

 

Speaking of YT Pod builds, did anything ever come from the Chewie + 4 pods list?

Edited by Flurpy

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think it's a bit of an irrelevant hypothetical because all the discussion anyway only matters if you build a what @Boom Owl likes to call "logical list". Maybe Finn fits into more lists because he is less reliant on others. For example as noted here I fully agree that Finn + Cova is better than Rose + Cova because Rose likes to have someone close and in front of her - where Cova clearly doesn't want to be because of higher initiative and her wanting to stop/reverse. And I don't think an endgame with either of the two is relevant (or is it @Flurpy???)

 

I actually disagree what it is irrelevant as I feel it illustrates part of at least my perception of the difference between Finn and Rose. One can kind of be added in as an after thought (like many filler options are) while the other has to have some consideration put in if she is to be used to her ability is to be used. It all leads back to the feel of the pilot.

The “last ship standing” example is an extreme in which you are in trouble with either pilot option. But it’s an extreme the demonstrates how these two pilots could be perceived differently. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hm. I could see a YT Pod Awing list work to some degree. I have next to no experience with the starfortress. Why do you think that limiting to those options means to get full value out of Rose?

The reason I selected that pool of ships is because I believe them to be difficult to get full value out of Rose (or more accurate definition, consistent use of her ability) as their flight patterns don’t really line up  with hers. I was curious how well you thought you could leverage her ability and her value when dealing with zipper ships. The Starfortress might actually not be too bad of a mate for Rose due to size and flight style. Though then you need to consider friendly bombs when planning for Rose.

Another reason I bring up these ships is because the list I’ve been the happiest with Finn in is him with Chewie, L’ulo, and a Blue Sqaudron Recruit. I don’t think I would get as good results by changing Finn to Rose because Rose crew is already in the list on Chewie (and I’ve been very happy with her use there), and because I’m uncertain how well I can proc Rose’s ability with how I fly the other three ships. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I mean, I was one of the early birds on Finn. I'm responsible for the stupid archetype name on metawing. You can watch my game against Dion from Euros on stream. I was always very open about how ridiculous the initial rules were, and I've spent too much time both defending and badmouthing Finn. So yes, I'm coming from a place where Finn's position in the game was never fully accepted, and that likely affects my way of seeing him.

Fair. The defensive loophole in his ability was stupid. It was good it was closed and I think it actually strengthened Finn’s role as bait as it makes him a more tempting target. 

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree and I agree. I only play very selectively by now, with some few people and games that I can expect to be interesting. It's not that I want to make Resistance work in some form. More that I enjoy Awings a lot, and somehow T70s have this strong allure on me. Pods are more of a (necessary?) means to make the other two ships work a bit better.

Fair. I definitely agree that the pod, regardless of pilot, is there to make something else work or shine. 

I must admit. I haven’t been that fired up to be too experimental in my lists of late. For the past month or so, I’ve had the same two lists in my kit (one’s a good meta list I actually enjoy flying and want to get good at, while the other is some weird Rebel jank that amuses me), and a Scum list i’ve been making minor tweaks to. Life has been kind of hectic, so I’ve been feeling less like trying something new and more like having fun with some favorites.

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5 hours ago, RStan said:

 

Remember comparisons like these?

Poe Dameron w/ R4 and Black One = 72 pts

Darth Vader w/ Afterburners = 73 pts

tenor.gif

Makes Poe sad...

Poe is really cool. So is Soontir and Fenn Rau. To bad resistance doesnt have interesting small bases besides t70s. So hyped for the fireball, I hope its not just i5 slam the game. 
 

I just want to play Poe + 4 🔥

Edited by Boom Owl

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I only play very selectively by now, with some few people and games that I can expect to be interesting.

Which is a bummer. Your 5A thread (and blog) are assets to the community.  Miss you when you’re gone, x-wing friend I’ve never met! 

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