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4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Let's punt till we make Andrew do free labor

Fair enough.

I manually calculated quite a bit for Finn (but the 42pt version with double focus), and my conclusion is that he dies too often to 3 shots in the same turn (the double focus version!). But I also assume that those shots will be from ships like Jedi, Soontir, Vader, Whisper, etc (double modded and 3attack dice when 4 are just as easily possible). How good is a ship like Finn if he will be taken out within a single turn, without shooting back? The answer is probably that it depends on how much damage the other ships do in return. And that is a key point for me, Finn with his horrible maneuverability does not get much of a say about the situation where he will get shot and taken out. The aces however will.

27 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

I dont have anything else to say but this:

Black Squadron Ace with Hull Upgrade 54

Cova with Leia 57. 

You are paying 3 points for a different dial and the ability to help your other ships in clutch turns. Am I sold completely on Leia Cova? No. I think R4 Cova with Pattern Analyzer for 45 points is more efficient but what do I know? I got trashed by @Sunitsa at that trial, so I would trust him more. Speaking of. 

That is a bit my point though: Black Sqd Ace is not exactly good. So why then is Cova?

15 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I haven't tried rose yet (but I will do, I like the rose + Greer suggestion), but 30 points Finn is insane value: he deal damage reliably or tanks like a mother tucker. 

He might not be the best ship to play against a swarm because when he gets 2-3 attacks he usually falls down, but aces list will waste time on target just to get his undercosted ***. If they don't, he'll force them to roll evades. 

His dial ain't that great but it's good enough and he got leia backup when played along with cova. 

Speaking of cova: she's a Bwing with 2 defense dice, that got to coordinate AND that can play tower defense. Seriously, being able to just stay put or reverse is crazy good! She's also able to speed up thanks to 4 straight and 3 banks being reds. 

Cova and Finn are probably the best non awing resistance ships by a wide margin right now. 

It seems that our experiences and perception are very different regarding Finn.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think you are a little too fixated on the add focus part of his ability. I have found his add blank option to also be a reasonable aid in defense. It’s not an automatic thing like the Focus, but it can mean one more turn or even no damage, with luck. That plus his one “mega tank” turn means he can take longer to burn down than expected. Comparing to Rose, she does have more consistent rerolls, IF she has a friendly in the right arc. Even in formation, a squirrelly flanker can catch just Rose in arc and she has nothing. Rose is only Rose when she’s got friends in the right places. Heroic Finn is always Heroic Finn. Even with a Strain.

Adding a blank only helps in 14% of cases, no? Which, funnily enough, happens less frequently to me. I think I have a relatively good feeling for that number because of the A-wing's focus-blank roll at the same frequency. But that clearly affected my perception of him, true. The "mega tank" turn is not so mega anymore, because it comes at quite the cost for subsequent attacks. Catching only Rose in an arc depends of course on the wingmates, but another pod, a transport, or an X-wing should give you a reliable reroll.

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I also tend to have a higher opinion of the “Finn is bait” view of the pilot. If they’re pouring multiple shots into my little filler and not my big boys, I’m okay with that. Now, you don’t just throw him away. You want to last as long as possible to draw fire, so you have to get lay him smart. And if they ignore him, he can add a focus to his attack and potentially hit harder then anything in his “weight class”. Again, comparing to Rose, she has more consistent dice with friends, but a lower damage ceiling. I don’t mean to knock the consistency, that’s a good thing. But it requires more set up for less dice.

Finn is only as good of a bait as your opponents lets him be. Also, see the part at the beginning of the post. I'm mostly concerned with enemy aces.

15 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Your point about Finn not getting double mods compared to others begs a question: what ship can do that for the same or similar price point? Sure, Poe or Snap can get double mods, no problem. They are also more expensive than Finn. Another valuable thing to consider is even if you can find a three dice, double modded ship out there for 30, it isn’t in Resistance. I honestly think your dislike of viewing things along faction lines blinds you to realities of the game. If I could take say Wampa in my Resistance list, then I might not be so hot on Finn. But I can’t. If I want a filler ship that can do some damage in Resistance, the options are Finn and Rose. If I’m not flying formation, then Rose’s value goes down. Finn with Heroic always has some options. Maybe the dice gods frown and he dies in one shot. Happens to TIE fighters too. 

Oh, in that reply I didn't factor in the 30pts. It was a reply to the blanket "more damage than 3 die ships". You're right ofc that he has quite the output for a 30pt ship - IF he gets ignored and can do his thing. Which I'm clearly not agreeing with that he gets the opportunity as he wants.

I still don't see why Rose is not strictly better.

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15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is a bit my point though: Black Sqd Ace is not exactly good. So why then is Cova?

 

Im not disagreeing with you, just putting some points out to try to figure it out as well. Im Team Slim Cova here.

Edited by Flurpy

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51 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

 

I dont have anything else to say but this:

Black Squadron Ace with Hull Upgrade 54

Cova with Leia 57. 

You are paying 3 points for a different dial and the ability to help your other ships in clutch turns. Am I sold completely on Leia Cova? No. I think R4 Cova with Pattern Analyzer for 45 points is more efficient but what do I know? I got trashed by @Sunitsa at that trial, so I would trust him more. Speaking of. 

 

I can argue why Pava Bastian and Snap are good but not Great. Somebody put it very nicely a couple of pages efficiency lists are high floor/low ceiling. I've been flying Big XXX Deal/XXX Cova quite religiously the last couple months and can confirm that after going all around Europe my worst result is 3-3 but my best result is 4-1. In the end it did get me a World invite but that was more accidental than anything else. Its a list that will walk all over an unsuspecting player, but if a player is out-flying me I am very limited in how to manage that. Now I am a very limited player so a smarter player will do better but I dont see this archetype as much more than a decent B plus list.

 

Have you thought about slimming down Bastian to a Greer with Heroic and Advanced Optics and then replacing Nien with Poe. I noticed most of my losses come down to me not being able to close out the game once it ends up an opponents aces against my crippled list. The list desperately needs a closer and Im not sure who else could that be other than Poe.

Who are you?

45 points cova is probably  steal for her cost, but she is less reliable since you can't keep doing 0s or reverses. Leia is also a list wide buff and makes doing coordinate much more possible. 

I kinda like Bastian, usually he's either a biggs or ship that gets 2 modded attacks. 

I didn't miss a closer, but anyway poe without a decent bid is mostly a glorified jouster than a closer in my experience

Edited by Sunitsa

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

He's only tankier for a single shot per turn and then pretty much explodes. You can cargue that's good for a 30pt ship to draw as much fire. But he draws about as much fire as a mid-i TIE fighter before he explodes.

And he has no access to double mods, which are (sadly again) so prevalent for other 3 attack ships. Why is that wrong? It has to be because I'm clearly missing something.

 

edit: and to compare with Rose: she is stress-immune with her passive reroll. Unlike Finn, who by now really wants his advanced optics again for the expensive version. Or, limiting to 30pt HeroicFinn, he has atrocious time on target.

He's "only" tankier for a single shot per turn...

...


...tell that to 3 ship lists.

 

Edit: Also, vulture still are pretty irritated at the time "lost" killing a 30 point ship, for example.

 

Basically, Finn still seems like a steal, even with the RR "clarification"

Edited by Tlfj200

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On 12/2/2019 at 7:48 PM, Sunitsa said:

Who are you?

45 points cova is probably  steal for her cost, but she is less reliable since you can't keep 

 

 

Woops hit post way to early, I'm going to finish it now 

Sorry I thought you were another guy

Edited by Flurpy

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Just now, Tlfj200 said:

He's "only" tankier for a single shot per turn...

...


...tell that to 3 ship lists.

 

It doesn't simply even out over two shots, it's actively worse. And gets worse with every following shot.

Two questions for you:

1) Are you in any way afraid of Finn when playing against him? More than a 30pt TIE?

2) Have you tried him since the nerf?

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

It doesn't simply even out over two shots, it's actively worse. And gets worse with every following shot.

Two questions for you:

1) Are you in any way afraid of Finn when playing against him? More than a 30pt TIE?

 

Yes, and it's not remotely close.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

2) Have you tried him since the nerf?

Yes, I have.

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2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Yes, and it's not remotely close.

The 30pt version? Why?!

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sorry - that may sound dismissive, and it's not meant to be. It's meant to sound emphatic. I think, for 30 points in the resistance faction, heroic finn is a steal based on the low ship count meta, and that many swarms are 2 die swarms.

See the long post above. I'm mainly concerned with Aces, all the double modded 3-4 dice shots that are quite frequent. Finn melts to those, just as much as other 30pt ships.

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5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Fair enough.

I manually calculated quite a bit for Finn (but the 42pt version with double focus), and my conclusion is that he dies too often to 3 shots in the same turn (the double focus version!). But I also assume that those shots will be from ships like Jedi, Soontir, Vader, Whisper, etc (double modded and 3attack dice when 4 are just as easily possible). How good is a ship like Finn if he will be taken out within a single turn, without shooting back? The answer is probably that it depends on how much damage the other ships do in return. And that is a key point for me, Finn with his horrible maneuverability does not get much of a say about the situation where he will get shot and taken out. The aces however will.

That is a bit my point though: Black Sqd Ace is not exactly good. So why then is Cova?

It seems that our experiences and perception are very different regarding Finn.

Adding a blank only helps in 14% of cases, no? Which, funnily enough, happens less frequently to me. I think I have a relatively good feeling for that number because of the A-wing's focus-blank roll at the same frequency. But that clearly affected my perception of him, true. The "mega tank" turn is not so mega anymore, because it comes at quite the cost for subsequent attacks. Catching only Rose in an arc depends of course on the wingmates, but another pod, a transport, or an X-wing should give you a reliable reroll.

Finn is only as good of a bait as your opponents lets him be. Also, see the part at the beginning of the post. I'm mostly concerned with enemy aces.

Oh, in that reply I didn't factor in the 30pts. It was a reply to the blanket "more damage than 3 die ships". You're right ofc that he has quite the output for a 30pt ship - IF he gets ignored and can do his thing. Which I'm clearly not agreeing with that he gets the opportunity as he wants.

I still don't see why Rose is not strictly better.

Then let me ask you some questions to get a better feel for your view point.

Does Finn’s more autonomous nature over Rose have value?

Would you take Rose with a bunch of RZ2s and/or either of the large base ships in the Resistance?

You are quite fond of math, but how do you incorporate feel into your evaluations?

How much time have you put into Heroic Finn?

How far has Rose taken you?

 

A point I quickly want to add is you mentioned several times the opponent’s part in Finn’s use of his focus. It is true that the enemy has a say as to what Finn goes all in on. But that’s true about a great many ships. While I still believe the role of Heroic for getting three dice on the table shouldn’t be discounted, I also feel that being able to easily pivot from offense to defense and so forth is good. Either way, I’m happy. Just because he can’t both go all out on both offense and defense in the same turn doesn’t mean he has somehow failed his purpose. Again, what at the same price point can do both with three dice for both rolls? And, more importantly, what can do it in Resistance?

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7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

 

See the long post above. I'm mainly concerned with Aces, all the double modded 3-4 dice shots that are quite frequent. Finn melts to those, just as much as other 30pt ships.

Then why is he not worth it if he does the same thing as other 30pt ships in your mind? 

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1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

Then why is he not worth it if he does the same thing as other 30pt ships in your mind? 

I'll start with this: it is a similar discussion to the Cova+Leia. I'm not saying Finn is bad. I disagree with the idea that he is outstanding, that he is a no-brainer inclusion, that he is "an extremely good core", or that he is (with cova) "probably the best non awing resistance ships by a wide margin right now."

And as always in 2.0, please keep in mind that I still subscribe to the notion that most ships are ok at the moment, and that the performance differences between different ships are close enough to not matter too much. There are again more and more exceptions, mainly aces, and mainly force users.

So, I don't say he's not worth it. I say that he is not as good anymore as some seem to think.

8 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Does Finn’s more autonomous nature over Rose have value?

Is he more autonomous? In theory sure, but does it matter in practice? As such my answer is: depends on the rest of the list. I recently tried one with Snap, FatFinn, Rose and 2 Awings. And there Rose did better because she always had her rerolls.

9 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Would you take Rose with a bunch of RZ2s and/or either of the large base ships in the Resistance?

Yes, absolutely. I'd like to ditch Finn for something else (Jess Bastian Rose and 2x Blues, but that's 201)

12 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You are quite fond of math, but how do you incorporate feel into your evaluations?

That's a very open question. Can you specify a bit more what you're thinking about?

13 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

How much time have you put into Heroic Finn?

Only Heroic Finn? None. A lot into 42 and 43pt Finn.

14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

How far has Rose taken you?

So far 2/0 for the 2 games I tried. That is to say, not far. But I don't see how my personal success determines whether Rose is any good or not. I'm quite the scrub after all ;)

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20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The 30pt version? Why?!

See the long post above. I'm mainly concerned with Aces, all the double modded 3-4 dice shots that are quite frequent. Finn melts to those, just as much as other 30pt ships.

He melts to the SECOND of those, IF they can afford to spend all of their mods (no further incoming shots), AND if he didn't use his ability on the first shot (meaning the first shot could afford to use all of their mods or nattied).

And he cost 30. Go ahead?

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

If people shoots at Finn I'm happy with that.

Ditto.

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3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

He melts to the SECOND of those, IF they can afford to spend all of their mods (no further incoming shots), AND if he didn't use his ability on the first shot (meaning the first shot could afford to use all of their mods or nattied).

And he cost 30. Go ahead?

Ditto.

I know I asked to be sold on him and it might seem that I'm needlessly stubborn. But I honestly don't see it and don't get it.

Do what you want man applies of course, and I'm not telling anyone not to take him. But I really don't understand.

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I know I asked to be sold on him and it might seem that I'm needlessly stubborn. But I honestly don't see it and don't get it.

Do what you want man applies of course, and I'm not telling anyone not to take him. But I really don't understand.

Maybe a better question is - what 30 point ship would you rather have than Finn?  You mentioned rose, and to be clear I agree.  They're roughly equivalent, list dependent of course.

The other competitions are blount and wampa, unless I'm missing one.  Everyone agrees these are ballparks away in terms of 'value', right?

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I know I asked to be sold on him and it might seem that I'm needlessly stubborn. But I honestly don't see it and don't get it.

Do what you want man applies of course, and I'm not telling anyone not to take him. But I really don't understand.

Because of the math vs. Rose or just in general?  

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2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Maybe a better question is - what 30 point ship would you rather have than Finn?  You mentioned rose, and to be clear I agree.  They're roughly equivalent, list dependent of course.

The other competitions are blount and wampa, unless I'm missing one.  Everyone agrees these are ballparks away in terms of 'value', right?

Yes

Maybe a better way to explain my position: It feels to me that Finn is not part of the same game as the current meta top guys. He is however part of the game that most other pilots play, and there is a really cool option to bring.

But Jedi, Vader, Whisper and some more are playing a different game.

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5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes

Maybe a better way to explain my position: It feels to me that Finn is not part of the same game as the current meta top guys. He is however part of the game that most other pilots play, and there is a really cool option to bring.

But Jedi, Vader, Whisper and some more are playing a different game.

Sure... but then you're basically saying "Don't play the resistance faction", which is a perfectly okay (edit: possibly even reasonable) position  to take.

But we're saying if you do play resistance, skipping ultra efficient finn seems like a mistake (skipping rose also probably a mistake, based on list build).

 

But like, *Just* vader shooting Finn? I'm super in.  BOTH vader AND whisper taking the time to shoot 30 point finn in a turn, while the rest of the list shoots back? Also, super in. (Maybe empire still heavily still favored under the "don't play resistance' mantra, but empire can't possibly feel good about that exhange, even if they win it).

Edited by Tlfj200

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2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But we're saying if you do play resistance, skipping ultra efficient finn seems like a mistake (skipping rose also probably a mistake, based on list build).

And that's exactly where I disagree. He is not ultra efficient anymore, and he's not an auto include anymore. He is part of the ok to good masses where other ships like Bastian, Pava, Snap, Nien, Ello, Poe, Rose, Cova, or Rey are also options to bring. I left Awings out because I think most of them are better.

If you bring 30pt Finn, make sure you already have 41pt Greer.

And, to pick up @gennataos' question, that is based on a mix of math, turn mapping, general maneuverability etc

I see Rose as just as good as him, and both are simply ok to good. In my opinion of course.

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And that's exactly where I disagree. He is not ultra efficient anymore, and he's not an auto include anymore. He is part of the ok to good masses where other ships like Bastian, Pava, Snap, Nien, Ello, Poe, Rose, Cova, or Rey are also options to bring. I left Awings out because I think most of them are better.

If you bring 30pt Finn, make sure you already have 41pt Greer.

And, to pick up @gennataos' question, that is based on a mix of math, turn mapping, general maneuverability etc

I see Rose as just as good as him, and both are simply ok to good. In my opinion of course.

I mean, any time you have to make the qualifier: "He's not very good if I have a second highly modded shot on him" and he's only 30 points, and if left unmitigated he's a more accurate 3-die focus attack... that still seems really good, to me.

 

I'm still going to take those whispers, and vaders, etc, and play other factions. But if someone forces me to play resistance, it's 5A, or it'll start with Finn.

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