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1 hour ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

The solution to this is to run efficiency.  

Yup. The solution to triple aces is to run something like Sear Swarm, or Moldy Swarm. Alternatively scum disruption jank does pretty well(it's been my solution), deny defensive mods other than force, and have more guns, giving away stress is also useful(so the imperial solution is probably a Sloane swarm).

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2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

The solution to triple aces is to run something like Sear Swarm, o

Two of losses at worlds were me (sear swarm) against triple Jedi who jousted me.  First round in both of those, I lost two Vultures for only a couple of shields, and I had all guns on target.  Sear swarm is not a real answer when they can beat you by jousting.

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1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Two of losses at worlds were me (sear swarm) against triple Jedi who jousted me.  First round in both of those, I lost two Vultures for only a couple of shields, and I had all guns on target.  Sear swarm is not a real answer when they can beat you by jousting.

I guess it works against some, not others. Force is generally too strong/cheap, and triple aces won worlds, so there's that. But there's the skill and luck factors too. There were many triple ace lists at worlds, and only one made it to the final, I bet several got knocked out by swarms.

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I think I just convinced myself that dead man’s switch is secretly really good. It makes people avoid taking range one shots probably more often than it should, and auto damage is always good. 
 

I know there is a stigma against doubling down on losing, but otherwise is it just the lack of good efficient ships with illicit slots? Is it people fly in formation when they shouldn’t and end up self damaging too often? It is pushing me to scum Zs instead of mining guild ties. 
 

Scum counting to 200 gets me five dead men Zs and a proton Bomb bounty hunter, and none of that is going to go up next Point update. 

Edited by AEIllingworth

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4 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Yup. The solution to triple aces is to run something like Sear Swarm, or Moldy Swarm. Alternatively scum disruption jank does pretty well(it's been my solution), deny defensive mods other than force, and have more guns, giving away stress is also useful(so the imperial solution is probably a Sloane swarm).

I’m not sure that’s the efficiency he meant, nor tactic he meant.

 

also, a CIS swarm will/should lose against well played jedi. 😞

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6 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

The solution to this is to run efficiency.  

I don't think this is true.  I don't know that we have enough sample size to demonstrate it, but from glancing through a few squads that are good proxy for triple ace (whisper, plo), they all have good winrates into "efficiency"

 

I think efficiency is just bad

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6 hours ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

The solution to this is to run efficiency.  

But I like busted aces!

Still can't decide on Crossroads list selection. I could have a last hurrah for Quickdraw as Rivas' and Super Kylo's wingmate before Vonreg invalidates any reason to take that SF in that archetype. Or I could fly Maarek Rexler Palp kitted to 200 and try to defend Rex's honor and legitimacy as a terrifying sledgehammer that can still yeet or dodge with LW + Adv. Sensors (and can disgustingly diet-Super Kylo).

I'm being torn apart. 

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7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think this is true.  I don't know that we have enough sample size to demonstrate it, but from glancing through a few squads that are good proxy for triple ace (whisper, plo), they all have good winrates into "efficiency"

 

I think efficiency is just bad

*shrug* I think it all depends a lot on exactly what efficiency is run, what ace list it meets, who the players are, and whose dice are hot.

Personally I've been stomping all over imperial aces with scum locally, and my opponents are old hands who've been around since early 1.0. I'm mostly using disruption lists, with 4-5 ships. Token denial, blocking, handing out stress, etc, and just putting more guns on target. I only recently got enough kihraxz fighters to try moldy swarm, but I'll be putting that to the test eventually, I just prefer to run homebrew lists instead of meta copypasta.

 

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2 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

But I like busted aces!

Still can't decide on Crossroads list selection. I could have a last hurrah for Quickdraw as Rivas' and Super Kylo's wingmate before Vonreg invalidates any reason to take that SF in that archetype. Or I could fly Maarek Rexler Palp kitted to 200 and try to defend Rex's honor and legitimacy as a terrifying sledgehammer that can still yeet or dodge with LW + Adv. Sensors (and can disgustingly diet-Super Kylo).

I'm being torn apart. 

Rex with double "hatchetman lite" nu squadron torpboats can be terrifyingly effective too. I met them with 2 bounty hunters and 4-LOM, one BH got deleted in the opening engagement.

Edited by Cerebrawl

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1 hour ago, AEIllingworth said:

I think I just convinced myself that dead man’s switch is secretly really good. It makes people avoid taking range one shots probably more often than it should, and auto damage is always good.

Local has been flying three partisan Uwings and a partisan X-Wing... don’t have details beyond that everything has deadman switch... It does things that some may feel unnatural...

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I faced 4 DMZs and Prox Kath with Soontir in a store tourney recently. It was very awkward.

I also faced it again the next day in another one, coincidentally, with 2 Jedi and 2 Y. That was less awkward. Their tendency to blow each other up whilst leaving you still alive is helpful.

A 5th DMZ would possibly not add much more. The Bounty Hunter has to do good work.

I kinda prefer double stacking DMS in a ship with a decent gun :D

 

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The issue with efficiency builds has always been that it’s a high floor/low ceiling archetype. You’re always going to have builds that can out-fly you and you’re relying on your opponent mis-flying their list in order to succeed. That works fine to get you into the cut, but it’s a really hard road through elimination.

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12 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

The issue with efficiency builds has always been that it’s a high floor/low ceiling archetype. You’re always going to have builds that can out-fly you and you’re relying on your opponent mis-flying their list in order to succeed. That works fine to get you into the cut, but it’s a really hard road through elimination.

I don't think that's strictly true. The thing with having quantity of guns is that you can make big killboxes that are hard to avoid entirely. When you've got multiple ships covering all possible destinations the aces can't really arc-dodge all that. If you have enough efficiency you may even be able to killbox and block. The skill ceiling goes up when you're putting blocks out to catch the aces, and killboxes that cover both the blocks, and their few remaining escape routes. There's a lot of variables to take into account. You can also deny them the engagement by routinely blocking obvious approach vectors, this is particularly true after the first engagement, when they have to turn around.

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47 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I don't think that's strictly true. The thing with having quantity of guns is that you can make big killboxes that are hard to avoid entirely. When you've got multiple ships covering all possible destinations the aces can't really arc-dodge all that. If you have enough efficiency you may even be able to killbox and block. The skill ceiling goes up when you're putting blocks out to catch the aces, and killboxes that cover both the blocks, and their few remaining escape routes. There's a lot of variables to take into account. You can also deny them the engagement by routinely blocking obvious approach vectors, this is particularly true after the first engagement, when they have to turn around.

I think alot of players dont understand how many options are available to them against properly balanced aces. Trouble is even if the many awesome fundamentals of moving first are learned....it tends to only work consistently against a specific set of relevant aces ( basically Fenn, Poe w/o blackone, sometimes Soontir ). 

The 2.0 aces that are used for the most part have built in ways to recover after they have been out played or out played themselves. 
Always on passive mods, white linked actions, fully execute actions, mods gained at start of engagement, and pre-movement changes. 
Normal ace abilities to double reposition, red link reposition, double mod offense or defense dice, target lock at high init, and init kill are apparently not enough options to make Aces feel unique. 
So the devs add mechanics to the aces that further mitigate in game ace counter play I assume as a way to add flavor and to balance them against list building counters like AOE/Control. 

That just re-enforces the general belief that the only way to beat aces consistently is with better aces moving last, turrets, fortresses, dial peaking or control. 
Leads to honestly reasonable requests for the same weird mechanical counter escalation that defined 1.0.

For ace counter play to be balanced around a primarily forward arc card pool's in game options FFG would have to enforce the these constraints on high init mobile Aces and mobile turrets:

  • No mods or actions when blocked
  • No mods or actions when stressed
  • No mods or actions when rocked or moving through obstacles 
  • Always receive stress to link re-positions 

Then they would have to get significantly more creative when designing new aces and flavor abilities ( more finite charges, more bullseye restrictions, more stress, more resource management,  more imperfect information decision based pre-requisites for triggers, more system phase mechanics ). I dont think that will happen though since we are already mostly locked into a AOE vs Token Stack vs Premovement vs Control vs Ace Jouster list building counter loop, with a couple token stack swarms mixed in. All that can be fun to. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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23 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I don't think that's strictly true. The thing with having quantity of guns is that you can make big killboxes that are hard to avoid entirely. When you've got multiple ships covering all possible destinations the aces can't really arc-dodge all that. If you have enough efficiency you may even be able to killbox and block. The skill ceiling goes up when you're putting blocks out to catch the aces, and killboxes that cover both the blocks, and their few remaining escape routes. There's a lot of variables to take into account. You can also deny them the engagement by routinely blocking obvious approach vectors, this is particularly true after the first engagement, when they have to turn around.

The issue is that kill box setup and execution require timing coinciding with you opponents movements and your opponent gets to opt out when they want to. Unless you have a mobile fortress like star vipers, you are reliant on your opponent flying into the trap at the same time as you spring it. If you spring it as they opt out, you have to reset, but your reset time is slower than your opponent’s and then you’re vulnerable. 

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4 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

The issue is that kill box setup and execution require timing coinciding with you opponents movements and your opponent gets to opt out when they want to. Unless you have a mobile fortress like star vipers, you are reliant on your opponent flying into the trap at the same time as you spring it. If you spring it as they opt out, you have to reset, but your reset time is slower than your opponent’s and then you’re vulnerable. 

I often engineer the opportunity to shoot at opposing aces regardless of their choice of maneuver/action, though granted if they're cagey and disengage it's often just a r3 shot or two at their backside. I've killed Soontir like that though. You really need to use the battlefield to your advantage.

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9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think alot of players dont understand how many options are available to them against properly balanced aces. Trouble is even if the many awesome fundamentals of moving first are learned....it tends to only work consistently against a specific set of relevant aces ( basically Fenn, Poe w/o blackone, sometimes Soontir ). 

I've become quite good at doing it to Vader, just ask @Muppetfluffer 😁

 

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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea denying Vader and Jedi target locks is helpful in specific spots. 

I kept him blocked something like 4 rounds in a row with the beta-version of my Fenn's Bushwackers list(Fenn Rau with predator, 2 Tansarii veterans with MMS+ABS, 2 Mining Guild Surveyors with Crack Shot). I wasn't even going for the kill on him, I was just keeping him out of the fight, while I killed off Seventh Sister and Echo.

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10 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

I kept him blocked something like 4 rounds in a row with the beta-version of my Fenn's Bushwackers list(Fenn Rau with predator, 2 Tansarii veterans with MMS+ABS, 2 Mining Guild Surveyors with Crack Shot). I wasn't even going for the kill on him, I was just keeping him out of the fight, while I killed off Seventh Sister and Echo.

Nice, Those type of squads are really entertaining. What I have found recently is that players tend to just run Precog Vader to avoid some of that. 

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3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Nice, Those type of squads are really entertaining. What I have found recently is that players tend to just run Precog Vader to avoid some of that. 

I'm not sure that would've helped, he needed to go around a big asteroid at 2-2 to get back in the fight, and I just blocked all his hard turns.

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