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3 hours ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I have this recurring problem where I don’t actually get as much value out of the highest-I because I get blocked to death. How can I resolve this?

(Like seriously: I can kill with I 3-4, and very occasionally 5. 6 is just a waste though, because block city. But I know this is more of a me problem than a universal one.)

What 6s are you playing that are having this problem?

A lot of the time, having your i6 blocked is good (provided it's not a surprise and in front of a billion ships) because your han or anakin or vader or whatever can't get shot by the thing that blocked it, and still has all the dice modifications it needs.  Since that's not what you're talking about presumably, we need some more specifics!

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The context was the question of taking or not taking Anakin instead of a lower i5 ship with sense.

i5 with sense:

- better against i5 with less bid (sense was wasted, might as well take Ani)

- better against i5 with higher bis (sense was useful, might as well take Ani)

- better against i6 (sense was useful, might not as well take Ani b/c no bid)

- better against i1-4 (sense was wasted, might as well take Ani))

That was my point.

Not really, though, because in all those cases where Sense isn't helping, you've still saved a bunch of points that have been reinvested elsewhere, making your list more effective overall.

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8 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Not really, though, because in all those cases where Sense isn't helping, you've still saved a bunch of points that have been reinvested elsewhere, making your list more effective overall.

Obi and Plo are so cheap its sorta do what you want man territory, and I agree you can just build around them to even out other matchups. There is little upgrade compromise for the most part. The crazy thing is its not like Ani is remotely bad either though. You can still just take Ani Obi Plo or Ani Obi +1 and build a legitimately excellent list. R2 astro is so good, but even that can be left out. Its not like regenless high 180 or low 190 jedi with Ani are bad. You still get a monster Ace and access to some incredible tools, like R2A6 ( works on Ani to ).

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26 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Not really, though, because in all those cases where Sense isn't helping, you've still saved a bunch of points that have been reinvested elsewhere, making your list more effective overall.

imagine flying jedi aces and worrying about efficient list building. Just put upgrades on some and call it a day.

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3 hours ago, Brunas said:

What 6s are you playing that are having this problem?

A lot of the time, having your i6 blocked is good (provided it's not a surprise and in front of a billion ships) because your han or anakin or vader or whatever can't get shot by the thing that blocked it, and still has all the dice modifications it needs.  Since that's not what you're talking about presumably, we need some more specifics!

Bolded for key words.

Against someone who wants to block you, you have to basically accept it and plan accordingly.

Alternatively, 1v1 with a distant, modded focus fire target available, the bump is optimal.

A lot of the time, a concerted block attempt will cover most of your options, so it's simply a matter of working out which of those remaining options is best. A feedback loop of manoeuvre guessing, turn by turn, the earlier you see it coming, the better. At some point, you'll see a position that can't be blocked, or can be, but not with a shot at you. It's a lot of processing.

Ideally, you probably don't enter a space where so many of your options can be removed, but with a lot of current game elements, you don't always have that say.

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36 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Not really, though, because in all those cases where Sense isn't helping, you've still saved a bunch of points that have been reinvested elsewhere, making your list more effective overall.

Yeah, about 10pts. I didn‘t remember that the gap is now that large. Does Anakin‘s ability count for anything? Clearly not 10pt anyway. Another small difference is that actually moving after is still better than same ini plus sense. And then there is the possibility to ini kill and to avoid simultaneous fire.

Do those differences compensate 10pts? 

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5 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Bolded for key words.

Against someone who wants to block you, you have to basically accept it and plan accordingly.

Alternatively, 1v1 with a distant, modded focus fire target available, the bump is optimal.

A lot of the time, a concerted block attempt will cover most of your options, so it's simply a matter of working out which of those remaining options is best. A feedback loop of manoeuvre guessing, turn by turn, the earlier you see it coming, the better. At some point, you'll see a position that can't be blocked, or can be, but not with a shot at you. It's a lot of processing.

Ideally, you probably don't enter a space where so many of your options can be removed, but with a lot of current game elements, you don't always have that say.

What ship are you using? 

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As far as Ive seen, Sense helps a bit, but often just says what you already know. Dropping from I6 to I5 and saving really quite a lot of points helps much more.

CLT Plo and Obi- 99pt+

7B Anakin- 82pt+ 

2 halves of the same coin. If I have a plus already, I pay the extra 17pt for 2x ace. There's not really any other ship where you can make this kind of choice. It isn't X Wing vs A Wing. In play, they can be functionally the same, with just slightly different management.

I remember fondly, the days when 7B vs CLT discussion was new and unknown and nobody at all had made their mind up either way.

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5 hours ago, Brunas said:

What 6s are you playing that are having this problem?

A lot of the time, having your i6 blocked is good (provided it's not a surprise and in front of a billion ships) because your han or anakin or vader or whatever can't get shot by the thing that blocked it, and still has all the dice modifications it needs.  Since that's not what you're talking about presumably, we need some more specifics!

Vader is actually one I struggled with recently. My buddy sometimes likes to bring a decent number of little missile-carriers and set up to hose the area down with clusters. I bump, don’t have a lock or tokens, can’t get anything, and I’m left trying to stretch one or two force across a gazillion green dice rolls.

Fenn Rau is another one I took a whack at over the summer. He’s a nice killy ship until he bumps facing nothing useful and with no tokens. Reminds me a lot of Soontir from 1.0, who I also struck out with—to the point where I traded away my Interceptor & related conversion parts in 2.0.

Scum Han is inherently trickier to use because he has fewer dice unless you set him up right. But again, if you’re trying to come about and set him up, it sucks awful bad if you’re stuck with your guns facing the wrong direction and you can’t get a token.

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6 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

He’s a nice killy ship until he bumps facing nothing useful and with no tokens.

You have just described how 100% of high init mobile aces and turret aces should feel to play regardless of their point cost.

Edited by Boom Owl

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45 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

You have just described how 100% of high init mobile aces and turret aces should feel to play regardless of their point cost.

Lol—I’m honestly curious if there are any thoughts about how to fly such higher-I ships effectively. Barring that, I’ll gladly stick to my I 3-4 comfort zone. I don’t need to pay the premium for something that’s only gonna limit me!

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44 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

I’m honestly curious if there are any thoughts about how to fly such higher-I ships effectively.

Thats actually a genuinely interesting question. I’ll reply with a longer ramble of possibly incorrect advice later.

Short unhelpful answer is something like this:

Dont play scared. Play Aggresively Safe. If a spot looks dangerous leave. Make sure you leave options to panic button eject open. Sometimes the eject button involves attacking and is actually in close. Other times its just specific range bands or specific things you can do to shutdown the alpha strike someone paid a billion points to bring to the table. Most of the time its just a nope out disengage, but aggressive early moves are sometimes necessary to help set those nope lanes up. Thanks to backwards target lock mechanics, actions over obstacles, regen, init kill rules, and always on passive mods you can often make a dangerous spot safe by being aggressive which makes it hard to know what dangerous means but also less necessary and more advantageous to identify correctly. Make sure you know exactly how to define what dangerous looks like and how the MOV situation is constantly changing its definition. It varies pretty significantly matchup to matchup, round to round, ace to ace. But it is absolutely definable even if the definition of an ace isnt.

Also always be recycling except when you dont have to.

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Edited by Boom Owl

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On 11/28/2019 at 11:44 PM, DR4CO said:

Dash is far too blunt an instrument to be an ace.

That's the rub.  Almost all aces are blunt instruments.  The blunter they are, the better they perform.  If you haven't, consider listening to Oli Pocknell's report of his championship run on the 186th podcast.  Seems like close to half his games had some variant of  "So I just jousted them", "nobody expects a triple ace list to joust", and/or "mutiple double modded 3 dice shots do a lot of damage".  His squad was an extremely force-heavy triple Imperial list.

As a real fan of mid and low initiative generics, the hardest games to plan a strategy for are triple ace lists because they out initiative, out maneuver, and hit harder than my generic squad, despite having fewer ships.  Yet despite this, triple aces liata rarely opt into a joust, thinking they can outmaneuver a low initiative list easier.  They sometimes can, but so often they actually don't even have to try.

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28 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That's the rub.  Almost all aces are blunt instruments.  The blunter they are, the better they perform.  If you haven't, consider listening to Oli Pocknell's report of his championship run on the 186th podcast.  Seems like close to half his games had some variant of  "So I just jousted them", "nobody expects a triple ace list to joust", and/or "mutiple double modded 3 dice shots do a lot of damage".  His squad was an extremely force-heavy triple Imperial list.

As a real fan of mid and low initiative generics, the hardest games to plan a strategy for are triple ace lists because they out initiative, out maneuver, and hit harder than my generic squad, despite having fewer ships.  Yet despite this, triple aces liata rarely opt into a joust, thinking they can outmaneuver a low initiative list easier.  They sometimes can, but so often they actually don't even have to try.

This is especially true when the aces player understands exactly how much they can trade and need to carve out of an opponents list to create a trivial mid/end game scenario. 

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

This is especially true when the aces player understands exactly how much they can trade and need to carve out of an opponents list to create a trivial mid/end game scenario. 

 

I had a game against trip jedi where he spent most of it with neither of us shooting and I was like, "dude, your dice are way better than mine, just kill me already"

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