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1 hour ago, Quack Shot said:

Yeah, but I don’t want 2.0 to be ruined. For myself personally, I don’t play enough anymore to actually see the Nantex on a regular basis. Or if I do, I don’t have faith in any of the locals to not screw up with it, except for when@Crimsonwarlock plays it, which at that point if he’s playing anything other than Quad Vipers I’m probably having a better time lol. 

Says the guy who almost always runs the Falcon

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How do you guys practice to get better? I use a three step process while playing games to try to improve my decision making process. 
 

1. STOP the game at significant or even just random points in time after you have made a decision
2. COLLABORATE with your opponent to decide- What did either of you do wrong? What could either of you have done to be in a better position? Who did what right? 
3. LISTEN to their responses, even (especially) if they say your decision making was poor. 

If there was a problem with your decision making this will help you solve it. 

Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it!

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4 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How do you guys practice to get better?

I have an idea of how my list should work, who the target priority would be, basically how a fight should go. Then I play the match, and obviously things never go to plan. My opponent goes for Vader hardcore instead of Soontir, etc. Or going for Luke instead of Wedge. After the match, I ask my opponent why he did such-and-such. 

When I practice with my brother, we will actually stop the game, backtrack a round or two and see what would have happened if this-or-that occurred. Sometimes you double guess yourself, or know you should have just gone with your gut, so we like to backtrack and replay critical rounds. Really helps clean up your flying and decision making.

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6 hours ago, wurms said:

I have an idea of how my list should work, who the target priority would be, basically how a fight should go. Then I play the match, and obviously things never go to plan. My opponent goes for Vader hardcore instead of Soontir, etc. Or going for Luke instead of Wedge. After the match, I ask my opponent why he did such-and-such. 

When I practice with my brother, we will actually stop the game, backtrack a round or two and see what would have happened if this-or-that occurred. Sometimes you double guess yourself, or know you should have just gone with your gut, so we like to backtrack and replay critical rounds. Really helps clean up your flying and decision making.

 

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11 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

How do you guys practice to get better?

Well I simply just... Wait. Practice?

Dang, I’m bored of a list after a dozen or so games. Largely my practice can be stated as putting as many different ships and tactics into my weekly game(s) as I can and see what doesn’t work. Yes, I wrote that right. I’m more into doing things differently on the table, trying stuff, and seeing how it goes. Learn what not to do in tournaments.

Still very likely to try something new and untested both list wise, and if my opponents list has me concerned,doing something completely new tactics wise.

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posting this here too, rabble rabble

From: Wave 5 - Present
Total lists: 1308

Lists with force: 665
% of lists with force: 52.78%

Average number of pilots with force, in lists with force: 1.65
Average number of total pilots in lists with force: 3.32
Average number of total pilots in lists without force: 4.46
(Editor's note: if you remember Oops All Proton Torpedoes meta, from wave 1/2, at that time we had 1.06 copies of proton torps per table, on average. Right now, we have 1.68 force users per table.)

Total pilots: 4864
Total pilots with force: 1099 (22.59%)

% of lists with Force by faction:
Rebel:
 68 / 192 (35.42%)
Empire: 249 / 289 (86.16%)
Scum: 41 / 173 (23.70%)
Resistance: 37 / 141 (26.24%)
FO: 69 / 110 (62.73%)
Republic: 177 / 205 (86.34%)
CIS: 24 / 150 (16.00%)

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43 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Well I simply just... Wait. Practice?

Dang, I’m bored of a list after a dozen or so games. Largely my practice can be stated as putting as many different ships and tactics into my weekly game(s) as I can and see what doesn’t work. Yes, I wrote that right. I’m more into doing things differently on the table, trying stuff, and seeing how it goes. Learn what not to do in tournaments.

Still very likely to try something new and untested both list wise, and if my opponents list has me concerned,doing something completely new tactics wise.

I didn’t buy all these tiny spaceships to not fly them! 
 

I agree. I tend to change my lists whether I’m winning or losing with them. Obviously I don’t master any of them that way, but it definitely smoothed out my quality of play across the board, so it’s a lot easier to pick up new lists even in very different archetypes!

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37 minutes ago, svelok said:

posting this here too, rabble rabble

From: Wave 5 - Present
Total lists: 1308

Lists with force: 665
% of lists with force: 52.78%

Average number of pilots with force, in lists with force: 1.65
Average number of total pilots in lists with force: 3.32
Average number of total pilots in lists without force: 4.46
(Editor's note: if you remember Oops All Proton Torpedoes meta, from wave 1/2, at that time we had 1.06 copies of proton torps per table, on average. Right now, we have 1.68 force users per table.)

Total pilots: 4864
Total pilots with force: 1099 (22.59%)

% of lists with Force by faction:
Rebel:
 68 / 192 (35.42%)
Empire: 249 / 289 (86.16%)
Scum: 41 / 173 (23.70%)
Resistance: 37 / 141 (26.24%)
FO: 69 / 110 (62.73%)
Republic: 177 / 205 (86.34%)
CIS: 24 / 150 (16.00%)

Screen-Shot-2017-12-18-at-12.08.24-PM-54

Edited by RStan

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I’m super late for this party, but I just realized that if you Baffle Tavson in the end phase to take a lock or coordinate, you can flip the charge back because you got to decide the order of effects. 
 

That works, right? 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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12 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I’m super late for this party, but I just realized that if you Baffle Tavson in the end phase to take a lock or coordinate, you can flip the charge back because you got to decide the order of effects. 
 

That works, right? 

I have a vague recollection that Quickdraw needs to baffle before people discard round tokens, meaning you must recover that charge (charge recovery is after round token removal). 
 

I can’t find evidence to back that up. 

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20 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I have a vague recollection that Quickdraw needs to baffle before people discard round tokens, meaning you must recover that charge (charge recovery is after round token removal). 
 

I can’t find evidence to back that up. 

Edit: Nevermind, my scenario doesn't work. You have to execute game effects first, so you can't baffle and then flip the charge back because the charge has to flip first. 

Regarding Baffling into a token for the next round, that still seems to be an unresolved question. @catachanninja, did this come up at Worlds? 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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42 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I have a vague recollection that Quickdraw needs to baffle before people discard round tokens, meaning you must recover that charge (charge recovery is after round token removal). 
 

I can’t find evidence to back that up. 

Think that was a rule made from the SoS judges. 

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40 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Edit: Nevermind, my scenario doesn't work. You have to execute game effects first, so you can't baffle and then flip the charge back because the charge has to flip first. 

Regarding Baffling into a token for the next round, that still seems to be an unresolved question. @catachanninja, did this come up at Worlds? 

It did, but also didn't?  We spent a while talking about it, and it comes down to what "during" means.  The Community Rules supplement says you can't keep the token but that's pre-ability queue I think.  Overall, it's either:
A. Keep the token, don't recover the charge

OR

B. Don't keep the token, do recover the charge
but depending one how during work, it could be don't keep the token or recover the charge.

Either way, clarify with a TO beforehand and submit it as a question here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

 

Or just save everyone the trouble and don't take baffle

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The only fair way to do Tavson/Baffle is the way system opens have been.  That is to say yes, you can baffle then immediately recover the charge.

The alternatives are much scarier: Quickdraw gets to baffle with an evade token, but after your opponent has cleared tokens so you start taking juke shots into ships that are guaranteed to not have tokens.  Or, Tavson starts carrying over round tokens into the next turn.

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5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The only fair way to do Tavson/Baffle is the way system opens have been.  That is to say yes, you can baffle then immediately recover the charge.

The alternatives are much scarier: Quickdraw gets to baffle with an evade token, but after your opponent has cleared tokens so you start taking juke shots into ships that are guaranteed to not have tokens.  Or, Tavson starts carrying over round tokens into the next turn.

we don't do fair here, only RAW

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9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The only fair way to do Tavson/Baffle is the way system opens have been.  That is to say yes, you can baffle then immediately recover the charge.

The alternatives are much scarier: Quickdraw gets to baffle with an evade token, but after your opponent has cleared tokens so you start taking juke shots into ships that are guaranteed to not have tokens.  Or, Tavson starts carrying over round tokens into the next turn.

Orr... You run both and win no matter which way it gets ruled

Edited by Crimsonwarlock

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10 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The only fair way to do Tavson/Baffle is the way system opens have been.  That is to say yes, you can baffle then immediately recover the charge.

The alternatives are much scarier: Quickdraw gets to baffle with an evade token, but after your opponent has cleared tokens so you start taking juke shots into ships that are guaranteed to not have tokens.  Or, Tavson starts carrying over round tokens into the next turn.

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

we don't do fair here, only RAW

So am I right in thinking that RAW that charges should re-flip, then baffle timing should occur? 

If people want to TO it otherwise so that it's less abusive, I'm fine with it, I just want to be clear about that point. 

Also, how are people setting up Quickdraw to have  a stress and tokens? Like, someone coordinated to him and then he slooped (or 1-turned) and got shot but didn't spend a token on his revenge shot? This doesn't sound terrifying to me? Am I missing something? 

 

 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

The only fair way to do Tavson/Baffle is the way system opens have been.  That is to say yes, you can baffle then immediately recover the charge.

The alternatives are much scarier: Quickdraw gets to baffle with an evade token, but after your opponent has cleared tokens so you start taking juke shots into ships that are guaranteed to not have tokens.  Or, Tavson starts carrying over round tokens into the next turn.

🤨 Tav Baffle damage Coordinating an Evade to QD who Baffles off a shield to trigger her ability (leaving her chargeless till the next End Phase)? That's scary?

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5 minutes ago, Crimsonwarlock said:

Orr... You run both and win no matter which way it gets ruled

You only need baffle on Tavson to get your way no matter 😉  Either you get to baffle then regain the charge immediately, or do some really hilarious stuff and break the game in front of everyone's face.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Tav Baffle damage Coordinating an Evade to QD who Baffles off a shield to trigger her ability (leaving her chargeless till the next End Phase)? That's scary?

No - giving your opponent first player, so their tokens are cleared first, then you baffle quickdraw to perform an attack with juke is scary. Tavson baffling after tokens are removed and reinforcing, to then reinforce the next turn as well to have a double reinforced upsilon is scary. 

 

Really, effects happening after tokens are removed or charges flipped is silly and clearly unintended, and probably breaks things in significantly worse ways.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

Yes. And a Lock is a red token.

This is misleading (not the lock bit).  There are no rules for the end phase timings.  "Game effects trigger before abilities" isn't really relevant here - the entire idea that effects happen in the end phase AFTER tokens are removed/charges are flipped is deep into oversight territory.

 

Again, you can make these arguments, but then I'm going to start telling you that one of Tavson's or Iden's abilities don't work.  I'm not picky, you can pick either one, but the truth of the matter is we know the rules of the game aren't perfectly correct.  This is why tournament organizers have the ability to override errors in the rules reference.  Since the response to this is always "wait, what?":

 

Quote

All card interpretations during a tournament are the responsibility of a marshal, and a marshal may overrule the rules documents when an error is discovered.

Tournament Regulations (text): https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d1/88/d1884752-34e1-4ad6-a992-824f41694a03/x-wing_20_tournament_regulations_printer_friendly.pdf

Page 2, under conduct.

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20 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

So am I right in thinking that RAW that charges should re-flip, then baffle timing should occur? 

If people want to TO it otherwise so that it's less abusive, I'm fine with it, I just want to be clear about that point. 

Also, how are people setting up Quickdraw to have  a stress and tokens? Like, someone coordinated to him and then he slooped (or 1-turned) and got shot but didn't spend a token on his revenge shot? This doesn't sound terrifying to me? Am I missing something? 

So, as above, I'll generally never agree with the "well RAW says X" argument.  No one actually uses "RAW", it's a bad argument.  RAI is also a bad argument.  Rules are complicated.

 

But in this case, there is no RAW, even in the general sense of how it's used.  There's no rules for what happens in the end phase.  The lack of rules isn't rules - you're just staring into a lovecraftian horrorscape of nothing works unless you make some up.  Which... somehow, hasn't ended in catastrophe yet.

Edited by Brunas

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1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

This is just full RAW in general.  turns out we have to interpret things sometimes.

Right, but it's important to separate that opinion (which I hold) from situations like this, where not only is RAW broadly not something you can do, this is a situation where the rules just don't exist or are contradictory.

 

Another example is Dooku crew.  No one knows how dooku crew mechanically works.  If someone tries to tell you "RAW you do X", they're trying to sell you something. RAW the card does something that isn't specified mechanically in the rules in any way.  You just can't do anything with it without making some assumptions (and there are multiple reasonable assumptions you could make).

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22 minutes ago, Brunas said:

You only need baffle on Tavson to get your way no matter 😉  Either you get to baffle then regain the charge immediately, or do some really hilarious stuff and break the game in front of everyone's face.

I'm not going to lie to you, if I have the points I will probably staple Baffle to Tavson now. 

24 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Again, you can make these arguments, but then I'm going to start telling you that one of Tavson's or Iden's abilities don't work.  I'm not picky, you can pick either one, but the truth of the matter is we know the rules of the game aren't perfectly correct.  This is why tournament organizers have the ability to override errors in the rules reference.  Since the response to this is always "wait, what?":

 

Tournament Regulations (text): https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d1/88/d1884752-34e1-4ad6-a992-824f41694a03/x-wing_20_tournament_regulations_printer_friendly.pdf

Page 2, under conduct.

Ultimately it's a game of plastic spaceships and there's no money on the line. If the TO wants to Declare how something works, I either have to accept it or go home.

I'll accept it. I also don't care which way it goes, even if the answer is ultimately "you're not allowed to do a Tavson action off a baffle," because I thought it was worth the points even before this occurred to me. 

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

So, as above, I'll generally never agree with the "well RAW says X" argument.  No one actually uses "RAW", it's a bad argument.  RAI is also a bad argument.  Rules are complicated.

But in this case, there is no RAW, even in the general sense of how it's used.  There's no rules for what happens in the end phase.  The lack of rules isn't rules - you're just staring into a lovecraftian horrorscape of nothing works unless you make some up.  Which... somehow, hasn't ended in catastrophe yet.

I laughed out loud here at the Lovecraftian horrorscape.

Related, we had an issue last night where a drone on a rock got ionized, and we really had to struggle to figure out what happened.  

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

No - giving your opponent first player, so their tokens are cleared first, then you baffle quickdraw to perform an attack with juke is scary. Tavson baffling after tokens are removed and reinforcing, to then reinforce the next turn as well to have a double reinforced upsilon is scary. 

Really, effects happening after tokens are removed or charges flipped is silly and clearly unintended, and probably breaks things in significantly worse ways.

This is misleading (not the lock bit).  There are no rules for the end phase timings.  "Game effects trigger before abilities" isn't really relevant here - the entire idea that effects happen in the end phase AFTER tokens are removed/charges are flipped is deep into oversight territory.

Double reinforce - weird. I guess you could reinforce front and back every other turn? Feels bad when they attack from on your middle line and ignore both tokens. Also feels bad when they don't. Bad all around. 

Maybe I shouldn't be, but I'm surprised that I haven't seen more of this in FO play, given that Tavson is a known staple. Has Dion been deep-stating by suppressing this from game streams? 

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