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I had a local friend run Ghost/Fenn against me on VASSAL last night, and despite his total unfamiliarity with the list, I eked out a win -- on points, at time -- by the skin of my teeth.  I cannot see a way to beat it with my list -- with which I am undefeated in 20 games -- against a player experienced enough with it to deny me a route to Fenn.

That list -- specifically, Steven Gonzalez' version, which IMO is the strongest version and genius list-building on par with Berling -- is unreal strong.  The synergies are just rock solid, on top of incredibly powerful cards (Fenn, TLT, EU, Ghost/Phantom).

I'm not sure there is any list that's a favorite against it (that won't get 80/20ed against the rest of the field).  Holy cow.

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2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I had a local friend run Ghost/Fenn against me on VASSAL last night, and despite his total unfamiliarity with the list, I eked out a win -- on points, at time -- by the skin of my teeth.  I cannot see a way to beat it with my list -- with which I am undefeated in 20 games -- against a player experienced enough with it to deny me a route to Fenn.

That list -- specifically, Steven Gonzalez' version, which IMO is the strongest version and genius list-building on par with Berling -- is unreal strong.  The synergies are just rock solid, on top of incredibly powerful cards (Fenn, TLT, EU, Ghost/Phantom).

I'm not sure there is any list that's a favorite against it (that won't get 80/20ed against the rest of the field).  Holy cow.

I think its the combination of a bunch of things right...

  • Coordinate action on a 15-20 pt ship...no idea how they will be able to balance Rebels long term with this available. 
  • Half-Blinded Pilot applied by a PS11 ship with reposition
  • 4x TLT Shots
  • Generally full modifications available to the Ghost
  • Large Base Engine Upgrade
  • Duncan Howard is playing it ( This is both terrifying & disappointing ) 

Despite how dumb the list is ( its very dumb ) I still feel like the player base might self correct with Dengar Crew, Expertise, K4, Linked Battery, etc. 

Its not at all fun to play against but there have to be some solid options besides hyper specialized counter lists that kinda ignore Fenn Rau's pilot ability right?

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1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Despite how dumb the list is ( its very dumb ) I still feel like the player base might self correct with Dengar Crew, Expertise, K4, Linked Battery, etc. 

Its not at all fun to play against but there have to be some solid options besides hyper specialized counter lists that kinda ignore Fenn Rau's pilot ability right?

That's the route I looked at, but then you get shut down by anybody tossing Stress.  It's ugly.

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5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I had a local friend run Ghost/Fenn against me on VASSAL last night, and despite his total unfamiliarity with the list, I eked out a win -- on points, at time -- by the skin of my teeth.  I cannot see a way to beat it with my list -- with which I am undefeated in 20 games -- against a player experienced enough with it to deny me a route to Fenn.

That list -- specifically, Steven Gonzalez' version, which IMO is the strongest version and genius list-building on par with Berling -- is unreal strong.  The synergies are just rock solid, on top of incredibly powerful cards (Fenn, TLT, EU, Ghost/Phantom).

I'm not sure there is any list that's a favorite against it (that won't get 80/20ed against the rest of the field).  Holy cow.

 

I just said **** it and threw two accuracy corrected, TLT ghosts with EU and tactician on the table.  Sensor jam that ****.  The one time I matched up (and the only time I played against it) I ended up with a mutually assured destruction via simultaneous fire and went to final salvo.  I lost 4/8 hits to his 5/9.  I teched for his damage mitigation and trading health with TLT, but it was the primary arc that got me.  I tried to stay out of it as best as I could but he would boost and wiggle his primary with Fenn coordinate.  Ezra modified focus to crits on a shieldless ghost actually matter when they are done with a primary weapon and not a TLT.  If that coordinate boost wasn't going on I would have won that match.

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11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's the route I looked at, but then you get shut down by anybody tossing Stress.  It's ugly.

The bit you mentioned about players who remember to deny a clear route to Fenn is really critical. 

Its by far the most and possibly only important decision the Ghost/Fenn player has to make and if they don't do it becomes much easier to deal with. 

Still I am holding out hope that between RAC, Expertise, Dengar, K4, Linked Batteries, Lone Wolf and dare I say it Bombs....that some things will crop up and become popular that at least mitigate it. 

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2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Still I am holding out hope that between RAC, Expertise, Dengar, K4, Linked Batteries, Lone Wolf and dare I say it Bombs....that some things will crop up and become popular that at least mitigate it. 

I hope your hope is well founded.

Bombs ... heh.  Boy, a couple of nice bombing Wardens sure would be nice.  "Oh, you want to take away my focus?  Hold on while I dry these tears ... on your cordite-ridden corpse."

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Just now, LagJanson said:

Not tried or seen it in action, but doesn't a good harpoon alpha strike chew up the Ghost/Fenn lists? I really need to look at what the going trend is here for the list, so my question is based entirely on ignorance.

Only if the Fenn player messes up or the Harpoon player rolls really, really well.  Seriously, until you fly against this monstrosity, it is hard to describe how castrating it is.

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How do you feel like it would match up against other strong lists?

Went 4-2 and missed cut by about 35 MOV at Indy regionals (165 people).  It was the first time I flew the list.  Literally...the first time I used it was the first game of a regionals.  Wasn't till about round 3 that I got the hang of things.  It murders gunboats.  Badly.  Lost to final salvo vs Maul/Ezra Ghost + Fenn.  Lost my other match to really **** flying on my part and pulling a blinded pilot when all I needed to was get a single hit on a tokenless wedge to win.  Otherwise would have went 6-0.  It handedly beat a Wulf+Lowh+Jess list.  Murdered a NuNuNuQD list.  Murdered a Palp + Quiz + Lonewolf Stealth Device Ryad list.  Won *barely* at time against a 2 x HLC Rho + QD list.  That was my first match and I wasn't sure how to fly it right.  Plus giving up PS to the Rho's hurts a lot. 

The 2nd loss was against a Wedge + Jess + PTL HLC Keyan list.  It was an infuriating match.  Started 15 minutes late, opponent was taking 10 minutes a turn and I was frustrated.   I got greedy and still only lost to blinded pilot crit.  I win that match every other time if I pull my head out of my ***.

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1 minute ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Only if the Fenn player messes up or the Harpoon player rolls really, really well.  Seriously, until you fly against this monstrosity, it is hard to describe how castrating it is.

Guessing Fenn's ability, maybe hotshot copilot to swipe the focus (from context here) and double-tapping Kanan with TLT?

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9 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Not tried or seen it in action, but doesn't a good harpoon alpha strike chew up the Ghost/Fenn lists? I really need to look at what the going trend is here for the list, so my question is based entirely on ignorance.

From direct experience I have beaten it multiple times with PS11 Vader/Quickdraw and some cruise missiles and a massive bid. It depends a lot on the Fenn player taking the bait with w/e I serve up and allowing my other ships to get at him from out of arc...a tactic that works with a lot of other lists that don't include the alpha. Also the more I play against it the more I realize the whole "just take 2 PS11 ships" is more a sign of a problem then a legitimate counter....seems like I have been saying that for months now with Nymiranda and Genius Nym before it. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Guessing Fenn's ability, maybe hotshot copilot to swipe the focus (from context here) and double-tapping Kanan with TLT?

Basically, but not Kanan.  This version is the strongest:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!158:44,135,-1,-1,165,250:25:3:;162:-1,167:26:-1:;275:27,213,2:59:-1:&sn=Fenn-Ghost&obs=

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3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Strangely straight forward, actually. Beating it though, yeah, that's a problem. Hadn't thought about tossing Sensor Jammer in with combo of Hotshot Copilot. I'll have to consider that mess.  I do prefer to fly four ships so I'll likely still be able to hit... but that double tap usually shreds me too.

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

From direct experience I have beaten it multiple times with PS11 Vader/Quickdraw and some cruise missiles and a massive bid. It depends a lot on the Fenn player taking the bait with w/e I serve up and allowing my other ships to get at him from out of arc...a tactic that works with a lot of other lists that don't include the alpha. Also the more I play against it the more I realize the whole "just take 2 PS11 ships" is more a sign of a problem then a legitimate counter....seems like I have been saying that for months now with Nymiranda and Genius Nym before it. 

No, no. Wasn't talking about 'just take two PS11' because, yeah... that won't work well enough.  Heck, going back to four ships, those Y-Wings with flight assist Astros and ion cannons in a more toolbox type list are a wonderful problem solver. Need them to survive long enough though, and to do well in other match ups...  

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1 hour ago, viedit said:

Went 4-2 ...  Lost to final salvo vs Maul/Ezra Ghost + Fenn.  Lost my other match to really **** flying on my part and pulling a blinded pilot when all I needed to was get a single hit on a tokenless wedge to win.  Otherwise would have went 6-0.  

So you would have been undefeated, if you had won the games you lost?

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So someone on reddit made perhaps the most rage card I have yet seen...   I have arrived at two conclusion because of it:

1: people want to be able to "fly and win" and they don't realize that they are either bad players or playing crap lists, and thus handicapping themselves.

2: People are unwilling to admit that they want to play casual.  I play "competitively" every single week against the same person, but neither of us play things that one would regard as competitive because we actually just want to fly casual.  Once you admit that winning tournaments is not your goal, the game gets a lot more fun.

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1 hour ago, jagsba said:

So you would have been undefeated, if you had won the games you lost?

He asked if it was competitive.  I took a list that has now won the Atlanta and Indiana regions and variants of it took 1st and 2nd at Glendale Mandalore to final salvo and lost in that.  I also lost another by pulling a 1/15'ish chance card (blinded pilot) on literally the last exchange of a game.  In that context, yes it was competitive.

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1 minute ago, Mynock Delta said:

You'd theoretically draw stronger opponents if you win the games you lost.  I've submarined my way to many a cut...

That's the hypothesis (and among other things it was used to try to self-servingly justify the heinousness of intentional draws), but there's so much noise in that first-round random draw (and even in the second-round pairings) that the theory just doesn't hold up.  At this point in the game, list match-up has a ridiculous influence on win percentage.  Two great players could be matched.  Two terrible players could be matched.  Dice variance happens.  And on and on.

That said, I would welcome Gold Squadron's next research project to be an in-depth analysis of the hypothesis.

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4 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I had a local friend run Ghost/Fenn against me on VASSAL last night, and despite his total unfamiliarity with the list, I eked out a win -- on points, at time -- by the skin of my teeth.  I cannot see a way to beat it with my list -- with which I am undefeated in 20 games -- against a player experienced enough with it to deny me a route to Fenn.

That list -- specifically, Steven Gonzalez' version, which IMO is the strongest version and genius list-building on par with Berling -- is unreal strong.  The synergies are just rock solid, on top of incredibly powerful cards (Fenn, TLT, EU, Ghost/Phantom).

I'm not sure there is any list that's a favorite against it (that won't get 80/20ed against the rest of the field).  Holy cow.

Are you willing to share your list you've been playing with? Or is it secret until your local Regional?

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