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Posted (edited)

When a cacophony like this happens, I don't know what good it does.  Maybe devs pay attention and, at the very least, give scrutiny to "New Bad Thing", real or imagined?  Like, would Triple Ups have been emergency nerfed without an outcry from the community?  I wish I knew.

 

Edited by gennataos

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54 minutes ago, gennataos said:

When a cacophony like this happens, I don't know what good it does.  Maybe devs pay attention and, at the very least, give scrutiny to "New Bad Thing", real or imagined?  Like, would Triple Ups have been emergency nerfed without an outcry from the community?  I wish I knew.

 

Yes, I fully agree. It feels weird to argue "you should have less fun playing against this because you have no agency, whether you notice or not"

The maybe better or more efficient course of action is to pick it up and win stuff with it. Players react more to tournament results and actually being miserable, as opposed to being told that they will be miserable in a certain situation. Unfortunately it's also the course of action with less overall fun.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, I fully agree. It feels weird to argue "you should have less fun playing against this because you have no agency, whether you notice or not"

The maybe better or more efficient course of action is to pick it up and win stuff with it. Players react more to tournament results and actually being miserable, as opposed to being told that they will be miserable in a certain situation. Unfortunately it's also the course of action with less overall fun.

 

So, I've been going all in on Nantex because I wanted to see for myself how bad it was, what counters it, etc.

 

Without fail, the number 1 piece of feedback after every game, even the 2 I lost, was that they were aggressively unfun and took way too much to think around (when it was even possible). In this respect, Nantex may be appropriately costed (I think Fac and Chertek are low), but even telling someone that Sun Fac was 80pts doesn't make it less depressing when a single mistake gets Soontir one-shotted.

Edited by MasterShake2

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, I fully agree. It feels weird to argue "you should have less fun playing against this because you have no agency, whether you notice or not"

The maybe better or more efficient course of action is to pick it up and win stuff with it. Players react more to tournament results and actually being miserable, as opposed to being told that they will be miserable in a certain situation. Unfortunately it's also the course of action with less overall fun.

Well I was going to write something regarding this, then this happened:

1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

Without fail, the number 1 piece of feedback after every game, even the 2 I list, was that they were aggressively unfun and took way too much to think around (when it wad even possible). In this respect, Nantex may be appropriately costed (I think Fac and Chertek are low), but even telling someone that Sun Fac wad 80pts doesn't make it less depressing when a single mistake gets Soontir one-shotted.

I echo the above statement. I think X-Wing is the best tactical miniatures game I've ever played, but I'd rather play other games than play against the Nantex. I felt similarly about triple UPS and Handbrake Han. None of the three I think is/was overpowered. If thats the case, my only two real options are either voice my concerns or quit the game. 

I do think we've (myself included) have maybe gone too far collectively this time. FFG has had a decent track record in dealing with NPE stuff, but they can only move so fast. I'm sure they know now. Will I quit if they opt not to fix it? Nobody cares. 

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40 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I do think we've (myself included) have maybe gone too far collectively this time. FFG has had a decent track record in dealing with NPE stuff, but they can only move so fast. I'm sure they know now. Will I quit if they opt not to fix it? Nobody cares. 

That's FFG, and I agree.

How feasible or dangerous is social pressure? People buying and playing TripleUps got a lot of backlash, imo more than now. (It was easier to call them out because basically nobody owned 3 Upsilons before that)

The Nantex could see similar social pressure, that people simply refuse to play against it. Personally I'll do the opposite and get me some in December, for the reason outlined above (and with the side effect of learning a bit better how to play against it myself).

But how dangerous is it to stigmatize an NPE? I'm very conflicted on that.

On one hand it happens automatically to some degree. On the other hand, forcing my own opinion on others with the goal to influence their ship choices in a game is something I don't want to touch with a 10ft pole. Opting out of a game is in principle the same thing, but it feels like there is an important difference between that and loudly advocating/supporting social pressure due to the scale and control over the individual situations.

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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

but even telling someone that Sun Fac was 80pts doesn't make it less depressing when a single mistake gets Soontir one-shotted

But when Soontir gets one-shotted you lose 50 points.  When Fac gets one-shotted, it's 80 points.  BIG difference there.

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7 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

But when Soontir gets one-shotted you lose 50 points.  When Fac gets one-shotted, it's 80 points.  BIG difference there.

 

Sun Fac has NEVER been one-shotted in a game.  He has personally one-shotted:

2x RZ-2's

1x Hyena

2x Vultures

2x Soontirs

2x V-19's

1x TIE f/o

 

He has almost one shotted:

2x Inquisitiors

Finn

Vader

1x RZ-2

 

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1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Sun Fac has NEVER been one-shotted in a game.  He has personally one-shotted:

2x RZ-2's

1x Hyena

2x Vultures

2x Soontirs

2x V-19's

1x TIE f/o

 

He has almost one shotted:

2x Inquisitiors

Finn

Vader

1x RZ-2

 

Way to humblebrag about how you want it more than your opponents do

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3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But how dangerous is it to stigmatize an NPE? I'm very conflicted on that.

On one hand it happens automatically to some degree. On the other hand, forcing my own opinion on others with the goal to influence their ship choices in a game is something I don't want to touch with a 10ft pole. Opting out of a game is in principle the same thing, but it feels like there is an important difference between that and loudly advocating/supporting social pressure due to the scale and control over the individual situations.

This gets into a really slippery area, where the concept of "loyalty" becomes a social issue. If the social pressure is "you should be loyal to the game and the community and play without complaint even if you aren't having fun" is equally if not more dangerous than pressuring people to not play things that aren't fun to play against. 

The scenario happened to me in 1.0: I had taken sort of a forced extended break from X-Wing when my kid was born. Finally I started having enough time again to devote to playing a game competitively again, and my best friend (who I hadn't talked to a ton in the year that I was away from the game because he was still super into it) brought over Ghost-Fenn to prep for Adepticon. I played one or two games against it, and promptly swore off X-Wing until 2.0. Its strange to think about, but you are right: these decisions we make are socially impactful to some small degree and that is sorta scary. 

The scenario becomes:

Person A hates playing against the Nantex. Person B loves playing the Nantex. Neither is wrong in their opinion. However, if Person A refuses to play against the Nantex, Person B feels pressured to play lists that don't include that ship. If Person B insists on playing the Nantex, Person A feels pressured to play a game they aren't having fun playing. Both sides feel pressured, and nobody is wrong, and nobody is at fault. This is exactly the type of social interaction that happens all over the place, and as people we've got to learn how to handle the pressure with grace.

People bring up quitting the game, and I was hesitant to put it in my prior post because it's generally melodramatic. But really, if I were to decide that the play experience has mostly been ruined for me, it wouldn't be a messy exit at all: I simply would stop playing. If I was questioned on it by my friends that do play, its not a big deal man, I'm just not having fun anymore so call me when ya'll want to play something else. Please don't stop playing what you enjoy just so I'll stick around, my presence isn't important to the game. I think this is where a lot of people get hung up though: the game is very important to them and the idea of quitting is very distressing. The knee jerk reaction is to try and "fix" the game, even though fixing it isn't really in their power.

 

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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

single mistake gets Soontir one-shotted.

Yeah that's just par for the course with Soontir and is why I stopped playing him. His defense is actually awful against anything better than a three die with single mods, and even that does alright.

It's honestly the comparison that I most despise when discussing the Nantex (not just you here). Everyone seems to think that 55 point Soontir should have some sort of chance 1v1 against 80 point Sun. I don't get it. He doesn't unless he's moving second which is still uphill and that's balanced given their points costs. It's literally a whole ships difference in points.

As someone that played a lot back in wave 4 of 1e, I'll say that knowing your community is key to everyone having a good time. Back then, you pretty much asked your opponent if they were alright with you running Whisper. Sometimes people really wanted to try out a counter list, but it was generally considered good form to ask back then. There's nothing wrong with that before hand if they want a casual game or not. While I don't think the Nantex is as oppressive as Whisper was then, I certainly wouldn't run it on casual game nights anymore.

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