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8 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Vonreg is fully execute and doesn't pass the token...and boost or roll over clouds...and can't move you and then get a bonus off of it. Vonreg is positively wholesome compared to Fac and Jedi.

Isn't it fascinating how much we adjusted our understanding of "wholesome" compared to last April?

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Isn't it fascinating how much we adjusted our understanding of "wholesome" compared to last April?

 

Not really. Vonreg was always going to be a remarkably "fair" I6 because his actions and the order in which he can do them, come with more restrictions and an actual possible penalty. He's like Wedge, I respect that he has good initiative, but that doesn't affect my list building or approach in the same way other aces do. If blocked, Vonreg is an expensive and unmodified A-Wing. I'm pretty okay with that.

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2 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Not really. Vonreg was always going to be a remarkably "fair" I6 because his actions and the order in which he can do them, come with more restrictions and an actual possible penalty. He's like Wedge, I respect that he has good initiative, but that doesn't affect my list building or approach in the same way other aces do. If blocked, Vonreg is an expensive and unmodified A-Wing. I'm pretty okay with that.

I don't believe you. Vonreg a year ago would have caused a lot of concern. A 3/3/4 i6 ace with his free choice of double repositioning or double modification, great blues and on top of all that also can dish out control elements equivalent to weapons failure or outmaneuver/wedge...

Yeah, I don't believe you.

Remember when 2.0 was supposedly with fewer actions and double mods?

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't believe you. Vonreg a year ago would have caused a lot of concern. A 3/3/4 i6 ace with his free choice of double repositioning or double modification, great blues and on top of all that also can dish out control elements equivalent to weapons failure or outmaneuver/wedge...

Yeah, I don't believe you.

Remember when 2.0 was supposedly with fewer actions and double mods?

 

He has to boost right after executing, so his repo chain is limited. His debuffs also occur immediately before ships execute maneuvers and we know one of them is cleared by blues, so he's going to spend a lot if the game with no pilot ability...and double mods can be done by any force user without having to put a debuff on yourself.

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8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's part of my point: before April that was rather rare. You seem to judge Vonreg only from today's perspective

 

Not really, I wasn't bully on the pilot from the start (no passives, strict order for repositioning, sitting duck on any bump, pilot ability is mostly a worse Soontir), but then again, I approach aces not from a counter-ace perspective, but more "how hard is it to trap and/or kill this with a good block?".

 

EDIT this is likely also why I view the Nantex is general as a serious problem because the counterplay with lower initiative pilots is severely anemic. You can block a Nantex with 2 firing arcs facing the point of the block and end up with zero shots very easily (I've done it multiple times)

Edited by MasterShake2

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6 minutes ago, Caduceus01 said:

While we are on the topic of Vonreg’s tie how much to you all see Mag Pulse costing? It’s only 1 damage but the control elements of it are fantastic.

It seems really good.  I think it's better than Concussion Missiles, with the rare exception of turns where you really need to do two damage.  

In First Order, it turns Kylo's ability from mostly blank but sometimes really useful to definitely not blank.  

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51 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Not really. Vonreg was always going to be a remarkably "fair" I6 because his actions and the order in which he can do them, come with more restrictions and an actual possible penalty. He's like Wedge, I respect that he has good initiative, but that doesn't affect my list building or approach in the same way other aces do. If blocked, Vonreg is an expensive and unmodified A-Wing. I'm pretty okay with that.

he is the perfect platform for composure jank to get a lock and a focus every turn though, which I'm not chuffed about.

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38 minutes ago, jagsba said:

he is the perfect platform for composure jank to get a lock and a focus every turn though, which I'm not chuffed about.

He can get lock/focus without even using composure. What composure allows him to do is get focus/evade by failing the roll and then taking evade as normal action. 

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Isn't it fascinating how much we adjusted our understanding of "wholesome" compared to last April?

Man this so much

I used to think RZ-2s were a problem

then Jedi 

now Nantex 

each thing seems so wholesome compared to the thing that comes after it

I've had fun playing against all of these so I'm not feeling bad about the game or anything but this trajectory is worrisome 

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1 hour ago, Caduceus01 said:

While we are on the topic of Vonreg’s tie how much to you all see Mag Pulse costing? It’s only 1 damage but the control elements of it are fantastic.

It's already my favorite new harpoon missile

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25 minutes ago, pyoinator said:

He can get lock/focus without even using composure. What composure allows him to do is get focus/evade by failing the roll and then taking evade as normal action. 

Composure will also let Vonreg do a Focus/Boost.  That will also be pretty handy in the right situation.

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1 hour ago, Caduceus01 said:

While we are on the topic of Vonreg’s tie how much to you all see Mag Pulse costing? It’s only 1 damage but the control elements of it are fantastic.

Given how oppressive the effect is for just landing a single hit, I would hope to see it more expensive than Proton Torpedoes.

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Balance wise I think the game is still "Very Good" and I'm not worried about that part.

What I dislike is that there hasn't been a very clear move towards making ships and upgrades that are fun for both the player equipping them AND their opponent, and a really big focus on the player equipping them having fun. I totally see why a person would love playing the Nantex, there is so much agency and risk/reward.

Sun Fac I don't think is overpowered, but he is easily the least fun thing I've played against in 2.0. Watching my opponent move all the things and hand out tractor tokens sucks, taking a lot of time dialing a maneuver with all of a Nantex possible maneuvers and self tractor locations, woo fun.

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33 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

Given how oppressive the effect is for just landing a single hit, I would hope to see it more expensive than Proton Torpedoes.

I don’t know if it will be quite that expensive. It should definitely be the most expensive missile. It also might be the first secondary weapon to scale with Initiative because Jam and Deplete both benefit so much by shooting first.

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1 hour ago, 6ixorganizer said:

It was never touted as that. It couldn't be with soft ptl baked into so many ships. 

We disagree. It was, and it was perceived to be. Redline was an outlier with lock+focus torpedoes.

Most linked actions do not allow double mods, or double repo. Focus+Roll is one of the more frequent ones, and they are generally focus+repo, with x + rotate also being frequent. I haven't counted and go by feeling/memory here, but it would be easy and interesting to check.

Granted, I said fewer actions and not "fewer double mods or fewer double repo". Maybe the median increased towards 2 actions. But the average also decreased towards 2 actions, and that part of the curve was more relevant.

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Personally, I'm pretty sure that what they dialled back on the double action front was entirely lock and focus. In tune with the defence roll back. Which is what made Redline a stand out, back then.

Ofc, double mods are everywhere again now.

It feels very much like power has still crept, but it doesnt feel like the gameplay has crossed a threshold.

Yet.

Edited by Cuz05

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9 hours ago, Biophysical said:

 

It's why I'm hoping hard that 4 make a good list.

No force users... 4 health... 3 atk die though... 4 is likely, can probably make a 5 list but it will be barebones, just basing on the TAP, A-wing, and Tie interceptor. 

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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