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1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Oh please, we all know it'll just remove all their shields

4 un modded attack dice are going to blank out every time? Ignored Tavson would like a word. And does the Nantex really want to chance a disarm or ion? Sure for the points 2 ICTs are probably better but the AOD (area of denial) can be a valid disengage option.

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1 minute ago, FlyingAnchors said:

4 un modded attack dice are going to blank out every time? Ignored Tavson would like a word. And does the Nantex really want to chance a disarm or ion? Sure for the points 2 ICTs are probably better but the AOD (area of denial) can be a valid disengage option.

 

Clearly, you have never rolled my attack dice, sir...Heroic!

Edited by MasterShake2

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Do we need some sort of FAQ before Worlds to deal with the ability queue stuff?

Seen people asking about if Chopper and Fine Tuned Controls still works.

And if ketsu tractors a 2nd ship into r1 of Teroch, can he pick that instead.

 

At this stage, i have stopped caring.😥 The lists i play have no bonkers interactions. Let everyone else sort it out.😬

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8 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

 

At this stage, i have stopped caring.😥 The lists i play have no bonkers interactions. Let everyone else sort it out.😬

I'm the same way.  I play "point at the other guy and shoot" kinds of lists.  I'm kinda happy about that at this point in time. 

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22 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'm the same way.  I play "point at the other guy and shoot" kinds of lists.  I'm kinda happy about that at this point in time. 

I've been hovering in a world of casually playing snub fighters for a while now and pretty happy about it. I'm hoping the current wave of bs is fixed or pointsed out in the near future, If it's not, I get k2s0 to meme with until the end of time.

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1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

Do we need some sort of FAQ before Worlds to deal with the ability queue stuff?

Seen people asking about if Chopper and Fine Tuned Controls still works.

And if ketsu tractors a 2nd ship into r1 of Teroch, can he pick that instead.

 

At this stage, i have stopped caring.😥 The lists i play have no bonkers interactions. Let everyone else sort it out.😬

Chopper works on ships at Range 0 too, so you can add the Chopper Ability to the queue. I think you pick the target once it's his turn to resolve the ability. Same for Teroch.

We might be wrong. Man, every clarification by FFG just brings more questions :D
 

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/09/deal-altering-rules-reference-v105-and.html?_sm_au_=i5VmR15vHHt6SWfP 

 

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35 minutes ago, Polda said:

Chopper works on ships at Range 0 too, so you can add the Chopper Ability to the queue. I think you pick the target once it's his turn to resolve the ability. Same for Teroch.

I think this. As long as the ability has entered the queue, it can be resolved.

Unless something happens that makes it unresolvable....

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40 minutes ago, Polda said:

this is way too complicated.  All that changed was abilities with a requirement have to have that requirement be true before being added.  Generally (I haven't found any exceptions), these are worded as At timing X, if Y, do Z.  If there's an "if Y", Y has to be true when you're adding to the queue.

 

Compare Ensnare:

latest?cb=20190417122339

to Anakin (same format, requirement at timing) and fine tuned controls (no requirement at timing):

latest?cb=20190321015018

Similarly to teroch, who doesn't have a requirement when adding to the queue:

latest?cb=20180709183424

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32 minutes ago, Brunas said:

this is way too complicated.  All that changed was abilities with a requirement have to have that requirement be true before being added.  Generally (I haven't found any exceptions), these are worded as At timing X, if Y, do Z.  If there's an "if Y", Y has to be true when you're adding to the queue.

 

Compare Ensnare:

latest?cb=20190417122339

to Anakin (same format, requirement at timing) and fine tuned controls (no requirement at timing):

latest?cb=20190321015018

Similarly to teroch, who doesn't have a requirement when adding to the queue:

latest?cb=20180709183424

Old Teroch has requirement of having enemy ship at r1 at the start of the Engagement. If so - he's added to ability queue. 

But target is picked at the "Resolve ability" step according to the Player order (see Appendix 2), so if Teroch already is in ability queue it can be used at something pulled into r1 by the other ability (like Ketsu tractor).

What is no longer possible is to pull something into Teroch range when he wasn't in ability queue since beginning (so he didn't had anything in r1 at start). 

Edited by Oldpara

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Just now, Oldpara said:

Old Teroch has requirement of having enemy ship at r1 at the start of the Engagement. If so - he's added to ability queue. 

But target is picked at the "Resolve ability" step according to the Player order (see Appendix 2), so if Teroch already is in ability queue it can be used at something pulled into r1 by the other ability (like z Ketsu tractor).

What is no longer possible is to pull something into Teroch range when he wasn't in ability queue since beginning (do he didn't had anything in r1 at start). 

 

I assume every ruling goes against Teroch. His ability is always worse than you think it is. It's like the 1 rule of X-Wing.

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1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

I assume every ruling goes against Teroch. His ability is always worse than you think it is. It's like the 1 rule of X-Wing.

What is even worst: he's ability doesn't work on bump, which is common mistake I see on streams :(

Poor Teroch. 

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12 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Old Teroch has requirement of having enemy ship at r1 at the start of the Engagement. If so - he's added to ability queue. 

But target is picked at the "Resolve ability" step according to the Player order (see Appendix 2), so if Teroch already is in ability queue it can be used at something pulled into r1 by the other ability (like Ketsu tractor).

What is no longer possible is to pull something into Teroch range when he wasn't in ability queue since beginning (so he didn't had anything in r1 at start). 

Why does he have that requirement? I reject the premise of this argument basically.

While I'm thinking about it though, this is a translation nightmare. For example, how close to a literal translation are the Polish cards?

 

Teroch is At X, Do Y (then if Z do A)

The rules ref cares about a requirement for triggering the ability in the first place, which teroch doesnt have. Here's a list of all the cards that do (that I'm aware of)

AP-5 - arguable
Edrio
Heff Tober
Ibitsam
Soontir
Rexler
Karsabi
Unkar Plutt (pilot)
Guri
Viktor Hel
Jostero
Dengar
Ello Atsy
Nien
Ben Teene
Overseer Yushyn
Edon Kappehl
Rivas
Count Dooku (pilot)
Anakin Skywalker (aethersprite, ywing)
Odd Ball (all)
Swoop
Sai
Nodin Chavdri
R2D2 (ywing)
Debris Gambit
Advanced SLAM
Static Discharge Veins
Hera (crew)
Magva (crew)
R2D2 (crew)
Bistan
Outrider
Sloane
Ciena Ree
Minister Tua
Bossk (Gunner)
Dengar (Gunner)
Genius
Petty Officer Thannisson
Ferrosphere Paint
Biohexacrypt codes
Grappling struts
Count Dooku (crew)
Shadow Caster
Composure
Passive Sensors
R4-P44
Clone Commander Cody
Chancellor Palpatine
Landing struts
Ensnare

 

Note: 99% of these are irrelevant, unless you can find a way to lose your passive sensors charge when you engage, for example.

 

Edit: phone destroyed a bunch of nots, so was largely unreadable, sorry about that

Edited by Brunas

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32 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Strained Finn can‘t add a blank and then reroll the two, correct?

There can't be an ability queue when dice modifications happen or the entire game falls apart, and badly.

that is to say yes, he can.

Edited by Brunas

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27 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Why does he have that requirement? I reject the premise of this argument basically.

While I'm thinking about it though, this is a translation nightmare. For example, how close to a literal translation are the Polish cards?

 

Teroch is At X, Do Y (then if Z do A)

The rules ref cares about a requirement for triggering the ability in the first place, which teroch does have. Here's a list of all the cards that do (that I'm aware of)

Why he has this requirement? Because Rules Reference and the Card say so. 

What can we do? 

I understand your point of view - it would be valid if based only on card text, not on Rules Reference/appendix. But Rules Reference forces us to make "Abiltiy Queue", forces us to resolve abilities only in "Ability Queue" and (new thing) forbids us to put certain skills into "Ability Queue" if requirements are not met. 

Most of requirements are easy and cannot be altered (like "After you execute maneuver" - you cannot "unexecute it") but in some corner cases (Teroch/Nantex) it can change during resolving step (wasn't in r1, now it is). So they explained (for some reason), that this change doesn't count.

And now a trick question (this is funny) :

What are requirements for Snap Shot? 

 

Edit: Polish cards are pretty close, except few obvious mistakes. But we're talking about English text now and unfortunately Polish version will be closed in near future due to FFG cutting costs :(

Most of competetvie Polish players are knowing every card in Eng, and PL version is for casual players and for fun. 

Edited by Oldpara

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7 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Why he has this requirement? Because Rules Reference and the Card say so. 

What can we do? 

I understand your point of view - it would be valid if based only on card text, not on Rules Reference/appendix. But Rules Reference forces us to make "Abiltiy Queue", forces us to resolve abilities only in "Ability Queue" and (new thing) forbids us to put certain skills into "Ability Queue" if requirements are not met. 

Most of requirements are easy and cannot be altered (like "After you execute maneuver" - you cannot "unexecute it") but in some corner cases (Teroch/Nantex) it can change during resolving step (wasn't in r1, now it is). So they explained (for some reason), that this change doesn't count.

And now a trick question (this is funny) :

What are requirements for Snap Shot? 

 

Edit: Polish cards are pretty close, except few obvious mistakes. But we're talking about English text now and unfortunately Polish version will be closed in near future due to FFG cutting costs :(

Most of competetvie Polish players are knowing every card in Eng, and PL version is for casual players and for fun. 

We're disagreeing on the definition of requirement, here. I'm saying the requirements they're referring to are the conditions listed after the timing of the card. My understanding of what you're saying is that you believe the requirement of the ability includes all of the effects of it as well. For example for teroch, you must be able to choose a ship at range one.

 

It's not a trick question, the only requirement on snap shot is that a ship execute a maneuever.

 

We both agree requirement isn't defined clearly in the rules. Of the options given, checking for conditions that must be true when the timing of the card would be added to the ability queue causes the smallest dumpster fire, and lines up with the intent of the rules change. Ensnare being the example helps quite a bit there.

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5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

We're disagreeing on the definition of requirement, here. I'm saying the requirements they're referring to are the conditions listed after the timing of the card. My understanding of what you're saying is that you believe the requirement of the ability includes all of the effects of it as well. For example for teroch, you must be able to choose a ship at range one. 

Not exactly correct. In my opinion Teroch has to have enemy in r1 (I am not saying he needs to choose, or any arc requirements). There is a dot after first sentence ;). This is requirement to put him into "Ability Queue" according the new RR. 

Choosing target is during "Resolve abilities" step and it can be affected by shenanigans, but you cannot choose if you aren't in "Ability Queue". 

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2 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Not exactly correct. In my opinion Teroch has to have enemy in r1 (I am not saying he needs to choose, or any arc requirements). There is a dot after first sentence ;). This is requirement to put him into "Ability Queue" according the new RR. 

Choosing target is during "Resolve abilities" step and it can be affected by shenanigans, but you cannot choose if you aren't in "Ability Queue". 

Haha, that's literally exactly what I said. A ship has to be at range 1. Nothing about any arc. The source of our disagreement is very simple then. In my opinion, anything after "may" is the resolution of the ability, not the requirements. I'll post some examples when I'm not on mobile.

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22 minutes ago, Brunas said:

It's not a trick question, the only requirement on snap shot is that a ship execute a maneuver. 

Correct.

Some ppl believe there is "r2" in requirement ;) while r2 is only on resolve. 

So what does it means literally? 

It means that you can measure from snap shot carrier to any ship/any meanuver on the board to check if Snap shot resolves during resolve ability ;) even in r3, r50, on the other edge etc "just to be sure if Snap shot resolves or not".

I feel large potential to abuse and cheesy play to gain additional info. 

Edited by Oldpara

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50 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

I feel large potential to abuse and cheesy play to gain additional info. 

You should play somewhere that isn’t Poland and see it’s not always about gaming the rules. 

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1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

Edit: Polish cards are pretty close, except few obvious mistakes. But we're talking about English text now and unfortunately Polish version will be closed in near future due to FFG cutting costs :(

Most of competetvie Polish players are knowing every card in Eng, and PL version is for casual players and for fun. 

Oh, missed this - ouch, that's a real shame.  Sorry to hear it.

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

I feel large potential to abuse and cheesy play to gain additional info. 

Yeah, but there's already infinitely many ways to be annoying like this - probably not something you need to actively worry about.  You can already carefully measure out ranges out of all the arcs you don't have attacks from when you engage, etc.

 

Anyways, some ship ability examples.  First, the only other definition/requirement of "requirement" in the rules is here:

xL0F7NK.png

Since it's truncated, we don't get a real answer for what a requirement is.

 

So, let's look at what a requirement might be, with a simple card like Fearless.

 

Fearless: While you perform a  primary <front arc> attack, if the attack range is 1 and you are in the defender’s <front arc> , you may change 1 of your results to a <hit> result.

Clauses:

                                           A                                                                                     B                                                                                                                    C

While (you perform a  primary <front arc> attack), if (the attack range is 1 and you are in the defender’s <front arc>), you may (change 1 of your results to a <hit> result.)

While A, if B, then do C

All abilities follow this format - Timing, condition, and effect.  Sometimes there is no condition - for example:

 

                                                                          A                                                                         C

Fine-tuned Controls: After (you fully execute a maneuver), you may (spend 1 <force> to perform a <boost> or <roll> action).

After A, then C

 

For Teroch, that looks like this:

                                               A                                                                                                                                                            C

Teroch: At (the start of the Engagement Phase), you may (choose 1 enemy ship at range 1. If you do and you are in its <front arc>, it removes all of its green tokens).

Here again, we only have A and C - no requirement that must be true 

 

For Anakin, who was effected by the change:

                                               A                                                                                                   B                                                                                                                                        C

Anakin: After (you fully execute a maneuver), if (there is an enemy ship in your <front arc> at range 0-1 or in your <bullseye arc>,) you may (spend 1 <force> to remove 1 stress token).

Again, After A, if B, then C.  For example, Anakin can add his ability to the queue if he has a ship in bullseye or in front arc at r1, but is not stressed.  It wouldn't do anything (not even cost a force), but it's a thing you could do.  Similarly, Teroch can be added to the ability queue with nothing around him - it just does nothing (unless something makes it's way to him by the time he resolves).

 

I've been through about 200 cards, including all of them with this phrasing (conditional if clauses), and this has held true for all of them.

Edited by Brunas

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4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I've been through about 200 cards, including all of them with this phrasing (conditional if clauses), and this has held true for all of them.

Any chance you documented looking through those cards and noted which ones are/aren't effected by the RR update? 

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