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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I really like the TIE/fo price drop.  Before, it felt like putting in the number of FOs you wanted led to compromises in other parts of the list.  For example, you could have the FOs, but you couldn't get upgrades on the other stuff in the list.  With the drop, you get the basic upgrades you often want on a ship, or a bit of a bid, or an increase to a better pilot or something.  

As I said.... An upgrade faction who's upgrades are so expensive that you have to drop base chassis costs to give them a chance... Which then makes them just like every other faction (see @Boom OwlOwl's 3 Cadet + 3 SF list above with the Gunner Qdraw.). 

Makes me sad. 

At the very least they could start with dropping all the TECH upgrades 2-3 points and raising all those faction ships by that much, but eventually I'd be more than happy to pay, for example, 0 points for crack shot or 3 points for a Hull on an 1-2 point "overcosted" T70. 

I mean, make 4Ts and 5As still fit, but just make them PAY for being better chassis. (EDIT: I actually think both T70 and rz2 are costed pretty close to correct right now at 45 base t70 - 3 points for basically just a shield and different flavor - and 33 base rz2 - 3pts is probably a point or two too cheap for the toggle gun and three blue banks, but they're otherwise exactly the same statline as rz1 minus heroic, so it's tough -, but I definitely feel like the "pick 1. Run them naked (with heroic), 2. Pick a named pilot, or 3. wreck their competitive efficiency with a cool tech or talent upgrade" is strangling my squadbuilding lately).

Also, please don't tell me that only 3 points to give a TIE/ln a shield upgrade, a baked-in T.lock, a tech slot AND a better dial is actually paying what they should...unless we are gonna start talking about how Academies are overcosted because of Iden, yadayadayada.

Bottom line:

I think tech and munitions are too expensive for FO and Resistance compared to their cheapest chassis costs, and that finding a way to gently bump their generics and sand those specific upgrades would make those factions way more interesting right now and long-term. 

Edited by Bucknife

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, player3010587 said:

 

As a Kylo main: no. The Silencer is the best chassis in the game, bc who would have guessed that an Interceptor that trades its mods and evade for 6 health (2 being shields), the lock action, both munition slots, and the tech slot would be good? Nobody, of course.

Now Kylo is not the best force user (that goes to Anakin hands down). But his ship is scarily good. And the general rule for superships--especially positionally dependent ones--is that the initiative caps at 5. The better the chassis, the more likely the rule is enforced. Anakin in a Delta 7 is barely ok to allow, although he's really pushing hard the threshold of broken in the right hands, but an I6 TIE Defender that can advanced sensors a yeet in compromising turns on 7 token stacked hp is a big no. Vader in the X1 is held back by no native boost, but an I6 Starviper is doomsday. It is assumed that the game's best chassis should not have an I6.

 If the silencer/sf thingy is more along Delta 7B power levels (preferably beneath them), I6 Kylo in that could be cool. Heck, since everyone fears his waxing power matched only by Rey's similarly growing power, you could give both sequel force users in their new forms 3 force charges. But I6 supernatural Silencer Kylo that only needs to kill 27 pts as that is only 1 pts more than his killed epsilon friend that makes the list legal..that's NPE, even if not optimal

I liked this because you told @Boom Owl to git gud,(git gud @Boom Owl)  but also that's a good analysis on ship design and how it impacts the game

Edited by catachanninja

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22 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

There's plenty to do with this faction and I think we're just starting to break it in.

I feel like this is kinda true for 2.0 in general. 

That line between knowing if our lists are bad or if its just the fact that we are bad at the game is as blurry as ever. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

the "zack and chris special" at gencon

Chris played it first, before you even knew if you were going to play, so does he not get top billing (I know your answer already)?

22 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

 My boy, milwaukee guy, krayt on top on top, Tim O won the madison hyperspace with 5 optic fanatic tie FOs

I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

Edited by gennataos

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7 hours ago, player3010587 said:

Give him the 17th set of dice typically for the TO. And with only 17 people, if one were the TO, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

As a Kylo main: no. The Silencer is the best chassis in the game, bc who would have guessed that an Interceptor that trades its mods and evade for 6 health (2 being shields), the lock action, both munition slots, and the tech slot would be good? Nobody, of course.

Now Kylo is not the best force user (that goes to Anakin hands down). But his ship is scarily good. And the general rule for superships--especially positionally dependent ones--is that the initiative caps at 5. The better the chassis, the more likely the rule is enforced. Anakin in a Delta 7 is barely ok to allow, although he's really pushing hard the threshold of broken in the right hands, but an I6 TIE Defender that can advanced sensors a yeet in compromising turns on 7 token stacked hp is a big no. Vader in the X1 is held back by no native boost, but an I6 Starviper is doomsday. It is assumed that the game's best chassis should not have an I6.

If the silencer/sf thingy is more along Delta 7B power levels (preferably beneath them), I6 Kylo in that could be cool. Heck, since everyone fears his waxing power matched only by Rey's similarly growing power, you could give both sequel force users in their new forms 3 force charges. But I6 supernatural Silencer Kylo that only needs to kill 27 pts as that is only 1 pts more than his killed epsilon friend that makes the list legal..that's NPE, even if not optimal

Does anyone know these people? Can we donate a set of dice? 506 MOV means they played most of the games :(

 

And yes, thank god kylo is only i5 otherwise I'd be playing supernatural/primed kylo, tavson, and a nice hefty bid

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

An upgrade faction

What do you mean by "an upgrade faction"?  Aren't the majority of FO lists using the fewest upgrades?  Is there a theme thing I'm misisng here?

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Same kit as the Heroics.  It was the Resistance/FO intro wave kit, I'm surprised you wouldn't have already been all over the Scorch.  MUH BB-8 RANGE RULERS!

I think I was moving when we did those kits :(

ziW0GD1.png

neat

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Chris played it first, before you even knew if you were going to play, so does he not get top billing (I know your answer already)?

I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

I'd like to thank Zack for coming from the future to tell me to pack FO stuff to play his list.

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1 minute ago, Brunas said:

 

I'd like to thank Zack for coming from the future to tell me to pack FO stuff to play his list.

it was Ben and Alexs list. 

In my actual defense, when you asked which list you should play I did repeatedly suggest that one.

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Provocative idea that I don't know is true, purely because internet = unfounded statements.

Everything is already good. 1 or 2pt changes that improve the efficiency of a few of a certain factions pieces by 3-5%, make almost no difference, compared to a bunch more people looking at it a bit harder and actually bothering to git gud with it.

25pt nerfs to power lists does the rest.

Good job FFG.

I have no idea if this is true or not but present it as fact nonetheless. 

It's not even my opinion, I just made it up.

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12 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

it was Ben and Alexs list. 

In my actual defense, when you asked which list you should play I did repeatedly suggest that one.

keller is the source of all lists though, we already know this.  also is this unironic gaslighting? I had to go back and check - i liked in the first time july 29th and was told you really liked it, you'd been trying to find the right things to add in FO after scorch and kylo.

HELP I DON'T KNOW IF I'M SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYING A BIT

6 minutes ago, jagsba said:

@Brunas, I picked up some extras from that kit and I don't have FO. You want me to bring them to world's for you?

that would be awesome if you don't mind - any stupid ugly factions you want promos from in exchange?

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37 minutes ago, Brunas said:

What do you mean by "an upgrade faction"?  Aren't the majority of FO lists using the fewest upgrades?  Is there a theme thing I'm misisng here?

Can't speak for him myself, but Kylo 2U is the only FO list that I don't slap upgrades everywhere. Bizarrely more than Rebel and Empire. Republic is the faction that I go lite.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, player3010587 said:

Can't speak for him myself, but Kylo 2U is the only FO list that I don't slap upgrades everywhere. Bizarrely more than Rebel and Empire. Republic is the faction that I go lite.

One cool thing is that FO has access to upgrades besides Fanatical, Optics, Passive Sensors, and SF Gunner. Rarely used but still good. 

Somewhat random example but Lone Wolf changes alot of FO ships into early game threats rather than mid game threats that regularly get init killed before they get to use that fanatical mod. Works stupidly well with Advanced Optics to. Just like Optics Kylo + Force or Fanatical Optics. Key is you get access to 3 hits without depending on your opponent to target your ship and a significant defensive boost. For 3 pts more. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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34 minutes ago, Brunas said:

that would be awesome if you don't mind - any stupid ugly factions you want promos from in exchange?

lemmie see how many extra i got, its at least a couple. I think I've got all the generic faction prizes from the kits, but if there's something from a bigger event you don't want, I'm in on everything but FO and CIS right now (and lord am i considering CIS now)

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2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

lemmie see how many extra i got, its at least a couple. I think I've got all the generic faction prizes from the kits, but if there's something from a bigger event you don't want, I'm in on everything but FO and CIS right now (and lord am i considering CIS now)

You don't want to be supreme lead?

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1 hour ago, Brunas said:

ziW0GD1.png

Please tell me this is just a screen grab from someone else buying this and you're actually going to acquire something from @jagsba.  I think I have a cardstock or two of them, if need be.

BUT TAKE MY PLASTIC ROOKIE/SCORCH FROM MY COLD/DEAD HANDS.

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25 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Please tell me this is just a screen grab from someone else buying this and you're actually going to acquire something from @jagsba.  I think I have a cardstock or two of them, if need be.

BUT TAKE MY PLASTIC ROOKIE/SCORCH FROM MY COLD/DEAD HANDS.

im so confused, are there scorches available or not, can i sign up for scorch plz?

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27 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Please tell me this is just a screen grab from someone else buying this and you're actually going to acquire something from @jagsba.  I think I have a cardstock or two of them, if need be.

BUT TAKE MY PLASTIC ROOKIE/SCORCH FROM MY COLD/DEAD HANDS.

if someone else is me, someone else bought it

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27 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

im so confused, are there scorches available or not, can i sign up for scorch plz?

No, @Brunas already bought my listing. not really

26 minutes ago, Brunas said:

if someone else is me, someone else bought it

It is purty, so fair.  I wish the other side wasn't a generic, because now if I run more than one, well....plastic and cardboard generics don't mix!

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3 hours ago, Bucknife said:

As I said.... An upgrade faction who's upgrades are so expensive that you have to drop base chassis costs to give them a chance... Which then makes them just like every other faction (see @Boom OwlOwl's 3 Cadet + 3 SF list above with the Gunner Qdraw.). 

Makes me sad. 

At the very least they could start with dropping all the TECH upgrades 2-3 points and raising all those faction ships by that much, but eventually I'd be more than happy to pay, for example, 0 points for crack shot or 3 points for a Hull on an 1-2 point "overcosted" T70. 

I mean, make 4Ts and 5As still fit, but just make them PAY for being better chassis. (EDIT: I actually think both T70 and rz2 are costed pretty close to correct right now at 45 base t70 - 3 points for basically just a shield and different flavor - and 33 base rz2 - 3pts is probably a point or two too cheap for the toggle gun and three blue banks, but they're otherwise exactly the same statline as rz1 minus heroic, so it's tough -, but I definitely feel like the "pick 1. Run them naked (with heroic), 2. Pick a named pilot, or 3. wreck their competitive efficiency with a cool tech or talent upgrade" is strangling my squadbuilding lately).

Also, please don't tell me that only 3 points to give a TIE/ln a shield upgrade, a baked-in T.lock, a tech slot AND a better dial is actually paying what they should...unless we are gonna start talking about how Academies are overcosted because of Iden, yadayadayada.

Bottom line:

I think tech and munitions are too expensive for FO and Resistance compared to their cheapest chassis costs, and that finding a way to gently bump their generics and sand those specific upgrades would make those factions way more interesting right now and long-term. 

I don't think upgrade factions exist. Factions are differentiated by the ships they have, not the necessity of upgrades.  Sometimes those ships fit nearly into 200 points and then they don't have upgrades.  Sometimes there are points leftover and they take upgrades that make them a little better.  Some ships get a lot out of upgrades, some don't.

First Order's 2 best ships (Kylo and Tavson) don't need upgrades at all.  Quickdraw does need upgrades.  FOs and SFs can be run lean or with stuff and be fine both ways.  So what makes FO an upgrade faction?  Now or ever in the past of 2.0?

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2 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

PSA: a small ship that doesn't have a tractor token and then gets one becomes tractored.  There is no rules limit to the number of times a ship may become tractored in a round.

Yeah, nantex ensnare mirrors about to get really silly really fast

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