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Just now, jagsba said:

i clipped it before the event and had it on the krayt group, figured I'd spare them from getting bombarded with inane questions from the masses.

it's like /r/BPT, adding a very small hurdle keeps out most of the trolls.

is this now a country club thread?

 

jesus nevermind, let's move on lmao

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Posted (edited)

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/926

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/927

 

https://listfortress.com/tournaments/928

 

Going to start entering standings for Day 1B - any/all help appreciated on everything.  Let's get it started a bit, then put everyone on blast to fill in the rest.

Edited by Brunas

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@GreenDragoon

f2c1893053af65ce47300fb133a30312.png

Card_Upgrade_36.png

Finally looking at Diamonds a little closer. Seems fine.  
Lock to fire and fewer charges is pretty massive constraint compared to barrage. 
Probes or that one Hyena in a CIS list seems like a decent fit. 
Or passive sensors which kinda makes it a 9 pt missile? 

I cant think of a list outside of CIS where I would consider it. 

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12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Lock to fire and fewer charges is pretty massive constraint compared to barrage. 

I think that's an interesting remark. If barrage wouldn't exist, we'd compare them to concussions and say they are pretty good. But because of barrage, we don't. Reminds me of 1.0 turret discussions.

IMO that doesn't make DBMs bad, just shows that barrages might be a bit too good compared to the other missiles, or all missiles are too weak compared to the rest of the game - there's currently no reason to take DBMs over barrage, I agree on that.

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29 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I cant think of a list outside of CIS where I would consider it. 

I think its very interchangeable with concussion missiles - the fact that it self splashes on the original target means its not hardcore anti-swarm tech, it can also just be a discount plasma missile

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Toying with a 4th ship for an Imp list, I went as far as getting a Punisher off the shelf, finding the Cutlass tile and Launch Baying  DBM and Passive on it....

Then I put it back on the shelf and got Seyn back out instead.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/5/2019 at 5:00 PM, Ablazoned said:

I don't quite get the point.

Under framework 1), killing 100 points and losing 80 is better than killing 40 and losing 0 running to time.  Under the rules we have, the latter is better and thus incentivizes such lists.

Under framework 2, if that Han runs a deep bid, he's starting down in points by that bid.

You brought up to points:

1. Only points destroyed counts towards determining who won and tournament rankings (after wins) 
We already use Points destroyed to determine who won a game. All this seems to change is the TIE BREAKER. So this solves 4:2 people flying lists that bleed MoV while tabling their opponents (or getting close to it) sneaking into some cuts?
Things like Fat Han could slowly chip away at your list, while keeping his 160-ish points behind regen and you would never score anything, except whatever cheap 2nd ship he is forced to bring? He scores more points, he wins. If he keeps winning - the MOV does not matter because he's not fighting other people with more than one loss for better MoV tie breaker score. He has the tournament points to get into cuts.

 

2. Scoring is same MoV as today, except bid is immediately given up when you start the game
You start slow rolling /stalling  lists OR points fortresses like Han UP on points against aces with a bid. These lists live on not giving your opponent enough time to score enough points from their list, while bringing guns which can in one-two rounds get a better score.
In the chubby Han example he just needs to make up the difference between what he already scored (=the bid) and what his cheap filler is worth if killed and score ~1 point more than that to win a game.
Then just run and keep above the half points threshold so you are not allowed to score more than whatever Jake is worth.

After all that, again if he keeps winning matches, he doesn't care about his MoV at all as that again is only a tie breaker.

 


Am I misunderstanding what you are trying to say? Are you perhaps talking about implementing a scoring system like Armada, where you take the difference between points destroyed and convert that into tournament points based on a table? I. e. 200:0 gives the winner 11 points and the loser 0. 180:20 is split 10 and 1 etc.?

Edited by Polda

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unknown.png

Seven factions is weird to get used to... an even distribution would have each faction at 14%, but that level - or just a normal variance away from it, like 10-11% - feels like a faction is "nowhere"

it could be weird data related (big events where swiss is missing tons of lists) but in extended right now, CIS is carving out an entire tier of its own in terms of unpopularity - the next least popular faction is literally three times more common than CIS

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

unknown.png

Seven factions is weird to get used to... an even distribution would have each faction at 14%, but that level - or just a normal variance away from it, like 10-11% - feels like a faction is "nowhere"

it could be weird data related (big events where swiss is missing tons of lists) but in extended right now, CIS is carving out an entire tier of its own in terms of unpopularity - the next least popular faction is literally three times more common than CIS

 

This, combined with the inherent complexity of a lot of CIS mechanics, is probably also why so many players don't seem to understand or grasp key aspects of the faction.  for example, a droid gets buffed simply by having other droids nearby and this frequently renders adding dedicated support elements superfluous (in many cases the support element doesn't buff the droids better than equivalent weight in droids would), but the reflex when going into CIS is "what support ship do I include for these droids?".  It's the faction of "three lefts to take a right" and you have to unlearn lots of X-Wing to really make it work.

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1 hour ago, svelok said:

unknown.png

Seven factions is weird to get used to... an even distribution would have each faction at 14%, but that level - or just a normal variance away from it, like 10-11% - feels like a faction is "nowhere"

it could be weird data related (big events where swiss is missing tons of lists) but in extended right now, CIS is carving out an entire tier of its own in terms of unpopularity - the next least popular faction is literally three times more common than CIS

IMO the CIS would be more popular if they had any good 3-4 ship lists.

 

Firstly the faction is more expensive to get into than it's mirror faction - the Jedi.

Then we have the other point, which has been talked about in every TIE swarm discussion ever - people find it daunting to fly more than say 4 ships. 

And lastly, as seen with the use of Rebel Beef, Sinker Swarms, Cartel Marauder, Double Jedi + Double Torrent, Sinker + 3 ARCs, Vader Soontir with double Bombers, Quad T-70s etc. people tend to flock to lists, which give them some room for error in the form of extra hit points - a luxury the Vultures do not have. 

 

Now, CIS popularity could rise if:


- Maul, Dooku go back down a bit, but maybe Hate stays at 9.
There is likely some cost they can be at which would make them playable without Hate.

- We get a sturdy droid ship with solid attack like the Droid Gunship on a medium base

- We get a small base, droid ace with Advanced Droid Brain or some long range Networked Calculations who can fly independently from the swarm

- We get a small base force user ace

- Seriously, where's my Asajj Ginivex?
 

 

The Nantex might be a step in the right direction, but may also prove to be too tricky to use by a wider group of players.
 

 

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1 minute ago, Polda said:

IMO the CIS would be more popular if they had any good 3-4 ship lists.

 

Firstly the faction is more expensive to get into than it's mirror faction - the Jedi.

Then we have the other point, which has been talked about in every TIE swarm discussion ever - people find it daunting to fly more than say 4 ships. 

And lastly, as seen with the use of Rebel Beef, Sinker Swarms, Cartel Marauder, Double Jedi + Double Torrent, Sinker + 3 ARCs, Vader Soontir with double Bombers, Quad T-70s etc. people tend to flock to lists, which give them some room for error in the form of extra hit points - a luxury the Vultures do not have. 

 

Now, CIS popularity could rise if:


- Maul, Dooku go back down a bit, but maybe Hate stays at 9.
There is likely some cost they can be at which would make them playable without Hate.

- We get a sturdy droid ship with solid attack like the Droid Gunship on a medium base

- We get a small base, droid ace with Advanced Droid Brain or some long range Networked Calculations who can fly independently from the swarm

- We get a small base force user ace

- Seriously, where's my Asajj Ginivex?
 

 

The Nantex might be a step in the right direction, but may also prove to be too tricky to use by a wider group of players.
 

 

 

This assumes CIS intended to be accessible...my working theory is that's not the case.  When games want to appeal to more experience players, they usually take the rout of adding more mechanically complex and combo-centric elements to allow players with greater skill to show off that skill.  Everything we've seen so far from CIS indicates that is the faction identity, a miasma of text walls, convoluted upgrades, weird interactions, etc. things that were always going to have a high skill floor regardless, but that can also have a high skill ceiling inviting stronger players to show of their knowledge of the game and mechanical skill (I heard Paul Heaver was tearing up a Vassal league with Vultures).

 

I don't think CIS was ever intended to be a starter faction...and if it was, it went poorly.

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2 minutes ago, svelok said:

This perception exists almost entirely because of grappling struts and the fact that CIS was chosen to introduce remotes

 

the cheapest generic in the game has both a linked action and a ship ability, the Dooku Cloak shenanigans is alos weird and the Nantex tractoring itself to repo?...I'm just saying, I don't think CIS was meant to be a beginner faction

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3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

the cheapest generic in the game has both a linked action and a ship ability, the Dooku Cloak shenanigans is alos weird and the Nantex tractoring itself to repo?

sure, but that stuff isn't all that complex or verbose - when people complain about CIS lists with essays worth of text, its because of struts and remotes

(also, for comparison... x-wings have linked actions and a flippable config, han breaks so many rules he's needed like 17 FAQs, and for the last like 4 months the meta has been defined by a rebel pilot who intentionally fails barrel rolls for stress...)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, svelok said:

sure, but that stuff isn't all that complex or verbose - when people complain about CIS lists with essays worth of text, its because of struts and remotes

(also, for comparison... x-wings have linked actions and a flippable config, han breaks so many rules he's needed like 17 FAQs, and for the last like 4 months the meta has been defined by a rebel pilot who intentionally fails barrel rolls for stress...)

^This.
X-Wings can get access to extra actions and action links they do not have by default by sacrificing a Primary attack die.

Similarly Vonreg will be able to perform an action for a Strain or Deplete. Kylo, Soontir and A-Wings can do it for a stress tokens. Jedi spend force. 

It's all just different risk-reward management. I don't find the Nantex any more complex than the Jedi with fined-tuned controls or a U-Wing sacrificing a defense die for the ability to stop and turn in place.

 

My key poopy take of the week:

CIS were designed to appeal to the people who like the baddies in Clone Wars not some alpha player with skill coming out of his ears to prove himself better than others. And x-wing sure isn't designed for the competitive "skilled" player (come on...) first. It just happens to be a very loud minority.

Edited by Polda

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

unknown.png

Seven factions is weird to get used to... an even distribution would have each faction at 14%, but that level - or just a normal variance away from it, like 10-11% - feels like a faction is "nowhere"

it could be weird data related (big events where swiss is missing tons of lists) but in extended right now, CIS is carving out an entire tier of its own in terms of unpopularity - the next least popular faction is literally three times more common than CIS

Just throwing in that frequency, realized performance and potential/ceiling are not at all the same.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Pick One For Wave 7:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7TeANosQkHy_YIBecM22

What does it do?

 

This one (yellow). It belongs to Scum and costs 60pts, but would be 45pts in a different faction. /S

Actually I really dig this one and would like to see it released for Scum.

 

Edited by Pink_Viking

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For Day1A people, make sure and add your opponents if you remember their lists!  You can cheat on their names - if you go down to "rounds", you can click the round number and get the matchups for that round to see what their name was if you're a terrible person with a terrible memory like me.

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