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15 hours ago, Makaze said:

I would both agree with that assertion and make the followup that those players have gravitated in that direction for a very good reason, especially since the release of the Silencer. BB8 Poe suffers not from an absolute lack of value but from a relative one when compared to the outstandingly efficient R2D2 Poe. He suffers the same fate when compared to Kylo.

If playing Poe is your number one priority then R2D2 Poe is the best Poe

If playing a nimble high PS pre move multi action arc dodger that can take a few hits is your number one priority then Kylo is the best Poe

I started a (relatively useless) thread about it, but I don't think many people have actually tried BB-8 in the current meta.  They're sticking with what has historically worked, regen, which is fine.  That doesn't make it the best.  That makes it the best they've tried recently.  

Kylo is not the best Poe.  Kylo is the best Soontir.  Just like Soontir, he can point-fortress turtle up and never get hit.  While he's doing that, like Soontir, he's also not hitting.

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1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I started a (relatively useless) thread about it, but I don't think many people have actually tried BB-8 in the current meta.  They're sticking with what has historically worked, regen, which is fine.  That doesn't make it the best.  That makes it the best they've tried recently.  

Kylo is not the best Poe.  Kylo is the best Soontir.  Just like Soontir, he can point-fortress turtle up and never get hit.  While he's doing that, like Soontir, he's also not hitting.

Kylo actually arc dodges better than soontir.

He doesn't dodge shots like soontir.

He's an unblockable soontir (for actions), that if in arc, has a good chance of taking damage.

"Turtling up" for kylo = 1 focus, versus Soontir's double focus + evade (and +1 agility).

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1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Kylo actually arc dodges better than soontir.

He doesn't dodge shots like soontir.

He's an unblockable soontir (for actions), that if in arc, has a good chance of taking damage.

"Turtling up" for kylo = 1 focus, versus Soontir's double focus + evade (and +1 agility).

True...turtling wasn't a good descriptive word choice.  My point was he's far more akin to Soontir than Poe.

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4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

True...turtling wasn't a good descriptive word choice.  My point was he's far more akin to Soontir than Poe.

He's more of a blend, really.

He's not very soontir-like except for the perception that soontir arc-dodged like him (he really didn't/doesnt).

With no evade, he's not like any imperial ace before (pretty much a good thing on that end). he has the ability to natively reroll with title (situational).

After playing him, he doesn't really "feel" like any ship so far.

 

Edit: Actually, he's closer to whisper, purely due to movement. The rest doesn't translate super well to anything.

Edited by Tlfj200

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Just now, Tlfj200 said:

After playing him, he doesn't really "feel" like any ship so far.

I've only watched him played, and he looks like he just teleports randomly around the board.  It kinda pisses me off because it makes me want to buy Imperials.

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1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I've only watched him played, and he looks like he just teleports randomly around the board.  It kinda pisses me off because it makes me want to buy Imperials.

This is actually the best description so far.  There's no logical start or end point to the moves, even if you know what's on the dial.

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I kind of feel like BB8 Poe and Kylo fly somewhat similarly, or at least their movement shenanigans operate in much the same way. They both BR, push to boost in one of 3 directions, clear the stress with a green move. It's just that Kylo's dial is sooooooooo much better, he doesn't have to BR, and if he doesn't mind ending with a stress he can do it on any color move. When I've put either on the table I'm running through a similar set of decision trees building the echolocation bloom in my head to try to pick out which of the 10s of places I could end up is the best. Which, as Travis mentioned, is also much like pre-nerf Whisper though to me it's even more Whisper than Whisper since the boosts change heading.

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20 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

With no evade, he's not like any imperial ace before (pretty much a good thing on that end)

That raises the question what you classify as ace? Because you don‘t count Quickdraw here.

IMO „ace“ and arcdodger are used synonymously when there is just a large overlap.

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9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That raises the question what you classify as ace? Because you don‘t count Quickdraw here.

IMO „ace“ and arcdodger are used synonymously when there is just a large overlap.

There's a really great description for what defines aces that im not sure i can post here. Tune in next week?

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Off-topic from the current discussion, but here's an example of the CR-90 build I mentioned a long time ago in action. With the "nerf" to ordnance being limited to 4 copies per list, CR-90 lists will easily become the dominant lists in Epic. Also here's just an example of what competitive Epic is like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_6icuaI7PA

 

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25 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I kind of feel like BB8 Poe and Kylo fly somewhat similarly, or at least their movement shenanigans operate in much the same way. They both BR, push to boost in one of 3 directions, clear the stress with a green move. It's just that Kylo's dial is sooooooooo much better, he doesn't have to BR, and if he doesn't mind ending with a stress he can do it on any color move. When I've put either on the table I'm running through a similar set of decision trees building the echolocation bloom in my head to try to pick out which of the 10s of places I could end up is the best. Which, as Travis mentioned, is also much like pre-nerf Whisper though to me it's even more Whisper than Whisper since the boosts change heading.

I don't think the current canonical Poe is PtL, so he's not pushing to action.  He's VI, focus in hand, boosting for title/arc/range/dodge or PoeLocking.  In a competitive vacuum, I can't really argue against Kylo over Poe of any flavor because neither are dying and, unless you put a relatively expensive torp on Poe, Kylo is worth more.

Edited by gennataos

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6 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Off-topic from the current discussion, but here's an example of the CR-90 build I mentioned a long time ago in action. With the "nerf" to ordnance being limited to 4 copies per list, CR-90 lists will easily become the dominant lists in Epic. Also here's just an example of what competitive Epic is like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_6icuaI7PA

 

I'm actually excited about the epic changes, but I'm still not sure I'm in.

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Just now, gennataos said:

I don't think the current canonical Poe is PtL, so he's not pushing to action.  He's VI, focus in hand, picking which side of the rock he wants to fly around and boosting for title/arc/range/dodge or PoeLocking.  In a competitive vacuum, I can't really argue against Kylo over Poe of any flavor because neither are dying and, unless you put a relatively expensive torp on Poe, Kylo is worth more.

Ah, only BB8 Poe I've played more than once is Push/BB8 (Dancing Poe?). The one time I played the VI version it just felt too limited. Sure I get to move last but without the potential to pre-move boost it cut down on the number of places you could end up which didn't feel worth the tradeoff, similar to Ptl vs VI Kylo. For some reason I just assumed everyone else had reached the same conclusion (not like there are a lot of BB8 Poes on stream to correct my misconception;))

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52 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

He's more of a blend, really.

He's not very soontir-like except for the perception that soontir arc-dodged like him (he really didn't/doesnt).

With no evade, he's not like any imperial ace before (pretty much a good thing on that end). he has the ability to natively reroll with title (situational).

After playing him, he doesn't really "feel" like any ship so far.

 

Edit: Actually, he's closer to whisper, purely due to movement. The rest doesn't translate super well to anything.

Maybe more like Corran?

Neither one of them gets quality shots every turn, but when they do, have the potential to lay down some hurt. They are both the ships that you are doing everything in your power to get to the end game. 

Whisper gets quality shots far more often, and Whisper's movement is still far more predictable than Kylo's. 

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1 minute ago, Crit Happens said:

Maybe more like Corran?

Neither one of them gets quality shots every turn, but when they do, have the potential to lay down some hurt. They are both the ships that you are doing everything in your power to get to the end game. 

Whisper gets quality shots far more often, and Whisper's movement is still far more predictable than Kylo's. 

 

Corran was exactly what I likened Kylo to in a discussion with a local player that hadn't flown him yet.  You have to plan out two turns ahead on if you are going to advance sensor and stress before movement and clear with a green to setup a more open dial the next turn, or wait and do all of that afterwards and restrict yourself on the next turn.  Or do all of your premove stuff, stress, and reveal a red and just scoot 2 forward.  Very similar thought processes.

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18 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Off-topic from the current discussion, but here's an example of the CR-90 build I mentioned a long time ago in action. With the "nerf" to ordnance being limited to 4 copies per list, CR-90 lists will easily become the dominant lists in Epic. Also here's just an example of what competitive Epic is like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_6icuaI7PA

 

I'm going to give this a watch after work. I'm guessing Maul onboard the CR-90 to provide free re-rolls? Otherwise, I don't see why the Raider could keep up.

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1 minute ago, Makaze said:

Ah, only BB8 Poe I've played more than once is Push/BB8 (Dancing Poe?). The one time I played the VI version it just felt too limited. Sure I get to move last but without the potential to pre-move boost it cut down on the number of places you could end up which didn't feel worth the tradeoff, similar to Ptl vs VI Kylo. For some reason I just assumed everyone else had reached the same conclusion (not like there are a lot of BB8 Poes on stream to correct my misconception;))

In the current meta, PS11 Poe is pretty strong, regardless of the flavor. 

The reason I push on the whole BB-8 thing nowadays is because before, Poe hit like a wet noodle.  That being the case, of course you were going to take regen because you needed him around a long time to provide much offensive influence on the game.  Truthfully, more often than not, he was a carrot you'd dangle in the hopes your opponent would chase and the rest of your list could do the work.  Now with Advanced Optics, he can be a workhorse, he's an actual threat.  BB-8 means more time on target, free stripping of a TL and less predictability. 

So...yeah...to each their own.  I'll keep beating the drum and largely dismissed until I do something to prove it.  Even with success, it won't likely gain enough traction to be considered anything other than a blip.

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3 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

Guys, we must keep this thread above all the "Introducing..." threads. We must show the greater X-wing community that this is not a place for bickering. It is a place for dank memes, and reaction gifs... and occasionally some content.

Content?  Who permitted this "Content"?

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