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1 hour ago, player3010587 said:

My Sophisticated Wild *** Guess (SWAG): Delta 7B is going to cost 18pt.

The jump from Tallie to Lulo is 3pt. Tallie is basically a bonus green and Lulo is basically trade a green for a red. That means that the jump from Tallie to Lulo is 2 greens and 3pt for 1 red. I have arbitrarily decided that if the cost in greens is halved, the points have to double. Of course they don't, but I have to have some arbitrary system. Plus, Trickshot is a bonus conditional die minus no agility for 2 pt. So on the dice changes alone, 7B is running a tag of 6pt. But it also has 2 shield upgrades, or in other words 2 upgrades worth 6 pt each to a 2 agi ship. So the end result is (3pt/2green) * (2green/2green) + 2([3-1green variable cost] *2) = 18pt.

I have a buddy at work who put all the values into a Design of Experiments tool (aka, a fancy statistics program). His guess was that 7B is likely to run around 16 points, although admittedly this was before the end of the first season’s points update. 

Am I wrong in thinking that 7B looks substantially superior to Calibrated Laser Targeting? I feel like I’m missing something, but it really seems like “well I don’t have enough squad points for another 7B, or an ARC, and eff the Torrent, so I guess I’ll take a cheaper Jedi and figure it out later.”

With the huge caveat of no points, is there anyone that’s intentionally considering running Torrents? I can’t even imagine what would get me to run what seems to be a worse TIE bomber. 

Edited by PaulRuddSays

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46 minutes ago, Brunas said:

You can be much lazier than that.  It turns a TIE/fo into a TIE/sf, without adding the rear arc.  Therefore it can't cost more than 16 points.  BUT IT ALSO TURNS a /v1 INTO AN XWING, WHICH IS ONLY LIKE 8 POINTS.

It turns a scyk in to a myxtylplk or sorta an rz-1 into a t-65?  So 10-11 points now?

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20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

You can be much lazier than that.  It turns a TIE/fo into a TIE/sf, without adding the rear arc.  Therefore it can't cost more than 16 points.  BUT IT ALSO TURNS a /v1 INTO AN XWING, WHICH IS ONLY LIKE 8 POINTS.

 

PANIC

10 points seems like a better v1 to X-Wing comparison.  Baron of the Empire's 33 to Red Squadron Veteran's 43--both Init 3 Talent generics.

But the X-Wing doesn't really have double-actions.  S-foils can link, but only with reduced attack dice.  The ship with the closest dial and statline with linked actions would be what, the starviper?  Black Sun Assassin at 48 is 15 more than a BotE v1.  But the Starviper is probably a hair tougher than an X-Wing.  So how much are linked actions on their own worth?  Baron of the Empire is essentially a TIE/fo in terms of dial, statline, non-linked actions, and upgrades, so maybe the linked focus are worth 2 points up from the 31 points of an Omega FO.  Putting this all together, if we're looking at somewhere between BotE to RSV or BotE to BSA, that's between 10 and 15 points, with the linked actions worth around 2-3 points, so like 12.

That's my number in the pool.  12 points for Delta 7B.

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6 hours ago, K13R4N said:

What would you think of 4 cheap "ace" ships? Throw in soontir with pred. Maybe have echo or whisper with Juke. Another cheap steal is double edge in the aggressor with homing missles and dorsal turret, if you get a lock you shoot with your homing they take a damage then shoot with your primary with a TL mod? 

Kestal with just Dorsal and 5th Bro is 48pt. Possibly ignorable until she slaps their heftiest defence modding ace with hit crit and cancels all the greens with no squiggle on. No need for the lock so a bit more versatile and potentially just as painful. I like a lot.

Also a huge fan of Echo, prefer her playstyle to Whispers by an order of magnitude. With just Juke, that's 55.

Leaving 97. Soontir with Pred and Duchess just about fit....

Probably akin to juggling swords in a glasshouse but looks heaps of fun.

Edited by Cuz05

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19 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Am I wrong in thinking that 7B looks substantially superior to Calibrated Laser Targeting? I feel like I’m missing something, but it really seems like “well I don’t have enough squad points for another 7B, or an ARC, and eff the Torrent, so I guess I’ll take a cheaper Jedi and figure it out later.”

I dunno.  It can be nice to have a 3-agility ship, however, and someone at high initiative with double reposition doesn't have too hard a time getting bullseyes, as Soontir Fel has taught us.

21 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

With the huge caveat of no points, is there anyone that’s intentionally considering running Torrents? I can’t even imagine what would get me to run what seems to be a worse TIE bomber. 

I know exactly what could get me to run a worse TIE bomber: being sufficiently cheaper.  If a generic Torrent is priced 24-25 points for the Init 2, that seems decent.  Like a beefier TIE.  Won't go boom after one bad dice roll.

I hear that there have been times where TIE Bombers were run in odd Howlrunner Swarms, because they have twice the raw HP of TIE Fighters.  Torrent--at the right price--does that.

I also know some folks just love Jedi, and would really want to fly Obi-Wan or Anakin or someone, and Ace + Miniswarm is a classic archetype of... [mixed?] effectiveness.  Some folks are just swarm people.  Torrent has a bad dial to leverage, but hopefully is sufficiently cheap to make up for that fact.  B-Wing is probably a bit tankier than an X-Wing, but the weak dial balances that out at the same price.  Torrent vs TIE Fighter is toughness vs dial all over again.  If they're about the same price per initiative/talent status, I can see it.

I think it's kinda the swarm ship which appeals to me most.  I get nervous with how easy TIEs and Z-95s can die, so I'll obviously have no stomach for a Vulture droid, but a Torrent looks like it might last longer.  I mean, what moves do you need besides 1 straight and 2-hard? :P

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17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

10 points seems like a better v1 to X-Wing comparison.  Baron of the Empire's 33 to Red Squadron Veteran's 43--both Init 3 Talent generics.

I mean, the secret is since all the prices are relative, some of these are meaningless.  No one would actually pay 33 for the Baron.

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6 hours ago, K13R4N said:

What would you think of 4 cheap "ace" ships? Throw in soontir with pred. Maybe have echo or whisper with Juke. Another cheap steal is double edge in the aggressor with homing missles and dorsal turret, if you get a lock you shoot with your homing they take a damage then shoot with your primary with a TL mod? 

Presuming you're starting with the Hate/FCS Seventh Sister you had quoted, 55 for Juke Echo and 54 for Predator Soontir leaves only 40 points, which is pretty tight.  Dropping to Sigma Ace for the Phantom would open up 4 points, which would allow a Striker Ace.  Maybe that's a Predator Duchess, or maybe one of the other two, and drop Soontir's talent to Crack Shot so the striker also gets CS.

Oh man.  Hate/Fire Control System has the same acronym as High Fructose Corn Syrup.  HFCS Seven!

Anyhow, her, Predator Soontir, and two named strikers fit really nice.  Grab both Countdown and Pure Sabaac with Crack Shot, and you could afford a 5 point bid.  I think I'd like that more than a Hull on Countdown... Hrm.

A friend of mine flew something similar with Soontir/Echo/Countdown/{I don't remember if the 4th was Duchess or Sabaac}.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

 

I know exactly what could get me to run a worse TIE bomber: being sufficiently cheaper.  If a generic Torrent is priced 24-25 points for the Init 2, that seems decent.  Like a beefier TIE.  Won't go boom after one bad dice roll.

I hear that there have been times where TIE Bombers were run in odd Howlrunner Swarms, because they have twice the raw HP of TIE Fighters.  Torrent--at the right price--does that.

 Torrent has a bad dial to leverage, but hopefully is sufficiently cheap to make up for that fact.  B-Wing is probably a bit tankier than an X-Wing, but the weak dial balances that out at the same price.  Torrent vs TIE Fighter is toughness vs dial all over again.  If they're about the same price per initiative/talent status, I can see it.

Yeah, I spent some time trying to figure out the torrent, and it definitely came down to price.  The ship has bad raw stats and a real bad dial, so efficiency is literally the only thing it can do.  

I seriously think it starts looking interesting at Academy Pilot points for the I2 pilot.  The dial pretty heavily informs it's usage, which I think means you have to leverage the slow moves to keep them on target and occupy space consistently.  They build a line that the fast and maneuverable Jedi fighters can move around. 

That's all theory, of course, and it's definitely an open question as to how much the dial downgrade is worth.  I could see using 3 of these with 2 Jedi aces instead of a 3rd ace.

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41 minutes ago, Brunas said:

right, but only the resistance onces, and the resistance A-wing is comically better than the /v1

Yeah, my 3 Barons (Repainted to be Red Barons, of course) might actually see use with a turret.

God **** though are barons just straight-worse RZ2 A-wings.

Worse Dial slightly

Worse linked actions slightly

Slightly worse upgrade bar

No Turret

1 point less

Is that a joke?

If they had the ability to take Delta 7B i'd consider them too I guess. They have no real damage output when shooting with 2dice, and lack Turret TimeOnTarget.

Delta 7b will cost 16-20 on that note.

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2 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I can’t even imagine what would get me to run what seems to be a worse TIE bomber. 

 

2 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Am I wrong in thinking that 7B looks substantially superior to Calibrated Laser Targeting?

Battle meditation is maybe the answer to both of those questions? If you're using your Jedi as a cheap double coordinate platform and for their ability then you want them more defensive. And if there's a decent missile somewhere in the next few waves a high init Jedi with battle med enables an V-19 ordnance swarm

Points depending of course

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31 minutes ago, Makaze said:

 

Battle meditation is maybe the answer to both of those questions? If you're using your Jedi as a cheap double coordinate platform and for their ability then you want them more defensive. And if there's a decent missile somewhere in the next few waves a high init Jedi with battle med enables an V-19 ordnance swarm

Points depending of course

Delta 7B is more defensive if you are coordinating out actions. 

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/ship_durability/?d=AgAAAAAAwBgG&a=AgI

http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/ship_durability/?d=AwAAAAAAwAgG&a=AgI

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2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I spent some time trying to figure out the torrent, and it definitely came down to price.  The ship has bad raw stats and a real bad dial, so efficiency is literally the only thing it can do.  

I seriously think it starts looking interesting at Academy Pilot points for the I2 pilot.  The dial pretty heavily informs it's usage, which I think means you have to leverage the slow moves to keep them on target and occupy space consistently.  They build a line that the fast and maneuverable Jedi fighters can move around. 

That's all theory, of course, and it's definitely an open question as to how much the dial downgrade is worth.  I could see using 3 of these with 2 Jedi aces instead of a 3rd ace.

The key Torrent's I'm looking at are Tucker and Generics. Like you said, it's going to be very price dependent and not only the lowest generics, but also the talent carrying generics. Dedicated seems useful if you have enough of them around your Jedi. So far there hasn't been a solid way to help force users deal with blank results defensively and Dedicated is a potential solution. There could be a good balance of the Blue Protectors with Dedicated helping Jedi like ObiWan, Anakin, or Plo Koon make it to a favorable end game. Could have an interesting combination of Sinker, 1 i5 or higher Jedi of choice, and as many Dedicated Blue Protectors as possible.

Edited: Although thinking of current ARC170 point costs, that composition may only have room for just 2 Dedicated Blues depending on the Jedi, especially if it has 7B config.  

Edited by RStan

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Omicron Group Pilot — Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle 43
Admiral Sloane 10
Grand Inquisitor 14
Ship Total: 67
Half Points: 34 Threshold: 5
   
Darth Vader — TIE Advanced x1 65
Afterburners 6
Ship Total: 71
Half Points: 36 Threshold: 3
   
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber 30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3
   
Scimitar Squadron Pilot — TIE/sa Bomber 30
Ship Total: 30
Half Points: 15 Threshold: 3

 

 

They took away my supernatural Vader so I gave my self a better supernatural for 14 points, and paired it with Sloane.

 

And into this shuttle I poured my Sloane, my Quiz, and my will to dominate all metas. 

Edited by SnooSnarry

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I feel like every time I post here I have to start with “I don’t listen to your podcast because I already hate my X-Wing self enough even before listening, so forgive me if this has been covered”, so there’s that.

 

Anyways, I don’t usually give much credence to what I read in X-Wing blogs, but... this Vennie list that he closes the article with is at least pretty close to oppressive, right?

 

https://suchanxwinghipster.wordpress.com/2019/02/17/elusive-heroism/?fbclid=IwAR3QXillz8Q7g_P7xetjQ2Na4UEIP15lKF3LSug2M5uCVYTGyef3IA_zz8Q

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22 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

I feel like every time I post here I have to start with “I don’t listen to your podcast because I already hate my X-Wing self enough even before listening, so forgive me if this has been covered”, so there’s that.

 

Anyways, I don’t usually give much credence to what I read in X-Wing blogs, but... this Vennie list that he closes the article with is at least pretty close to oppressive, right?

 

https://suchanxwinghipster.wordpress.com/2019/02/17/elusive-heroism/?fbclid=IwAR3QXillz8Q7g_P7xetjQ2Na4UEIP15lKF3LSug2M5uCVYTGyef3IA_zz8Q

There is a pretty constant hum of “resistance is trying to recreate first edition” and a reserved spot in the pantheon for “some big base turret combo bull”

 

This lines up. 

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18 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

There is a pretty constant hum of “resistance is trying to recreate first edition” and a reserved spot in the pantheon for “some big base turret combo bull”

 

This lines up. 

Ya. It was one of those things where you read through the step by step, or perhaps more appropriately, line by line interactions, and you go, “oh ya, I remember 1.0.”

Edited by Kdubb

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