Leia Organa - Walk me thru this

[schuwa 21]

Ok, I realize this is probably a totally stupid question, but walk me through how Leia's commander card works.  Am I getting this correct using the following example:

1.  I reveal a command dial that shows "Concentrate Fire Power".

2.  Leia's ability makes this count as if I BOTH revealed Concentrate Fire Power on the dial (because I did so) AND have a (non-existant) Concentrate Fire Power Token to spend on that activation?

 

I guess where I am confused is in the ability wording: I assume the ability doe NOT replace the revealed dial to a non-existant token effect?  That does not make sense, obviously.  So I am assuming it counts as both a dial reveal and a spent token, correct?

[Belegon 29]

That is correct, as long as you have not already resolved a command (ie spent a token for something else) you get the benefit of both dial and token for just the dial. You also cannot then resolve any other commands.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

Yes. There's a passage in page 4 of the RRG which is relevant here:

"A ship can spend both a command dial and a command
token to combine their effects. Doing so counts as a
single resolution of the command. For example, a ship
can increase its speed twice by spending a [Nav] command
dial and a [Nav] command token."

Admiral Leia simply lets you get this "combined effect" even if you only spend a command dial.

[schuwa 21]

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Carey 0]

And you still can use the "real" token to get another effect?

 

So with Leia and Raymus, a ship can: 

Concentrate fire: add one dice, then reroll two dices (or reroll one dice twice?)

Squadron: activate X+1+1 squadrons

Navigation: boost from speed 1 to speed 4 with a extra yaw (or brake from speed 3 to speed 0)

Repair: get 2X mecanic points (X+X/2+X/2, well if X = 3 you get 7 points actually)

[Green Knight 9,746]

1 minute ago, Carey said:

And you still can use the "real" token to get another effect?

 

So with Leia and Raymus, a ship can: 

Concentrate fire: add one dice, then reroll two dices (or reroll one dice twice?)

Squadron: activate X+1+1 squadrons

Navigation: boost from speed 1 to speed 4 with a extra yaw (or brake from speed 3 to speed 0)

Repair: get 2X mecanic points (X+X/2+X/2, well if X = 3 you get 7 points actually)

No.

There is no such thing as a "double" token.

So with Leia you get the Dial and the (virtual) token. 

If you have a token of the same type, you can save it for later.

[Carey 0]

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

There is no such thing as a "double" token.

oh?

I would understand that cause it is impossible to get two copies of the same token at the same time (if you get a nav token while you allready have a nav token, you get nothing. Only one token of each type per ship at a time)

But, well, Leia doesnt give a token. She says "your dial has both effects, one as "dial" and one as "token".". Nowhere you get a token, except virtually. So why couldn't I use the real token also? 

If that "virtual token" counts as a token, thats worse: you cannot save the token for later, because you are forced to discard a token when you get a token of the same type...

 

[Visovics 1,675]

17 minutes ago, Carey said:

oh?

I would understand that cause it is impossible to get two copies of the same token at the same time (if you get a nav token while you allready have a nav token, you get nothing. Only one token of each type per ship at a time)

But, well, Leia doesnt give a token. She says "your dial has both effects, one as "dial" and one as "token".". Nowhere you get a token, except virtually. So why couldn't I use the real token also? 

If that "virtual token" counts as a token, thats worse: you cannot save the token for later, because you are forced to discard a token when you get a token of the same type...

 

You are right that she doesn't give the token, but as the RRG says, you can combine the effect of a dial and token, which is what Leia does, and with you having used a token effect for that command, you can't use the one you have on your ship

[Drasnighta 26,832]

1 hour ago, Carey said:

oh?

I would understand that cause it is impossible to get two copies of the same token at the same time (if you get a nav token while you allready have a nav token, you get nothing. Only one token of each type per ship at a time)

But, well, Leia doesnt give a token. She says "your dial has both effects, one as "dial" and one as "token".". Nowhere you get a token, except virtually. So why couldn't I use the real token also? 

If that "virtual token" counts as a token, thats worse: you cannot save the token for later, because you are forced to discard a token when you get a token of the same type...

 

If you Resolve a Command that is a combination of a "A Dial and a Token" (Because you spent them both and combined them) ...  You have not resolved a Command Dial.  You have resolved a "Combination of a Dial and a Token."

A Dial and a Token contains a Dial.  But it is not "Resolve a Dial."

Resolving a Dial, is resolving a Dial only.

It is an IFF (If-and-only-if) clause, instead of an IF clause, as far as discrete logic goes.

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

As per the RRG, p. 3-4, commands can be resolved in one of three ways:

1. Spend a dial
2. Spend a token
3. Spend a dial and a token

Leia's ability lets you get the benefits of option 3 when resolving option 1. If you resolve option 3 to begin with, Leia provides no further advantages.

Also, even if you could somehow hold onto multiple identical tokens due to some hypothetical upgrade card, there is no option to spend them together (with or without a dial) during a single command resolution.

Edited July 31, 2017 by DiabloAzul
Fixed. Thanks @Lemmiwinks86

[Lemmiwinks86 934]

2 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

1. Spend a dial
2. Spend a token
3. Spend a dial and a token

Leia's ability lets you get the benefits of option 3 when resolving option 2

You  mean option 1, right?

[Vetnor 297]

That's the problem with Leia you're still only spending a dial, your not spending a dial and token. 

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

6 hours ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

You  mean option 1, right?

Yes, of course. Ooops.

[Tiberius the Killer 465]

So for Leia, in effect, actual Tokens become almost useless right?  Because when you use Leia's ability for Dial=Dial+token, you can't use another token matching token also, and you can't use a different token because you can't give any other commands besides that command.  Is that correct?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

Just now, Tiberius the Killer said:

So for Leia, in effect, actual Tokens become almost useless right?  Because when you use Leia's ability for Dial=Dial+token, you can't use another token matching token also, and you can't use a different token because you can't give any other commands besides that command.  Is that correct?

Unless you're using them for effects that require a Token, but not a Command.

 

Including, but not limited to:

Liasons
Fleet Commands

 

[Green Knight 9,746]

8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Unless you're using them for effects that require a Token, but not a Command.

 

Including, but not limited to:

Liasons
Fleet Commands

 

Boarding Engineers on Hammerheads, for example. It's not like they need the token spot for anything else, so it makes sense in a Leia fleet.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

So, to clarify:

Let's say that one has a Neb-B frigate, and it has a repair token on it from the previous round, and Leia is the commander.

If the dial is set to repair command, you can get 3 engineering points for the dial alone and another 2 for the Leia-dial+token-effect, for a total of 5 engineering points. You cannot spend the additional token for another 2 engineering points?

If this is not allowed, what is the rules reasoning for the prohibition?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

23 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

 

If this is not allowed, what is the rules reasoning for the prohibition?

Its a case of explicits.

 

Leia only triggers if you spend "A Command Dial" on the command.

 

If you spend "A Command Dial and a Token", you have spent "A Command Dial and a Token"...  Not "A Command Dial".

 

Because there are 3 delineated types of command ordering:

1) - A Dial
2) - A Token
3) - A Dial AND a Token

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Drasnighta

[Archangelion 50]

53 minutes ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

If the dial is set to repair command, you can get 3 engineering points for the dial alone and another 2 for the Leia-dial+token-effect, for a total of 5 engineering points.

Also remember that the 3 points will be spent seperatly from the 2 - not that it matters much in this instance, but for other ships - the dial and token aren't combined for engineering points.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

10 minutes ago, Archangelion said:

Also remember that the 3 points will be spent seperatly from the 2 - not that it matters much in this instance, but for other ships - the dial and token aren't combined for engineering points.

..  What?  I think you're mistaken - at the very least, I can't follow what you mean there....

When you generate Engineering Points...  You generate a pool of points.  You don't have to spend 3 on one thing and then 2 on another, in this case...  You get 5 Points..  You could do 5 1 point item, 2 x 2 point items, etc.

 

The whole reason to be able to do that is to allow an Engineering 2 Ship to Remove a Damage Card (3 points, out of 2 (Dial) +1 (Token) )

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Drasnighta

[Archangelion 50]

45 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

..  What?  I think you're mistaken - at the very least, I can't follow what you mean there....

When you generate Engineering Points...  You generate a pool of points.  You don't have to spend 3 on one thing and then 2 on another, in this case...  You get 5 Points..  You could do 5 1 point item, 2 x 2 point items, etc.

 

The whole reason to be able to do that is to allow an Engineering 2 Ship to Remove a Damage Card (3 points, out of 2 (Dial) +1 (Token) )

 

Yup, I totally read that wrong. My bad.

[Drasnighta 26,832]

6 minutes ago, Archangelion said:

Yup, I totally read that wrong. My bad.

No Worries!  At least the right page can be gotten to

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,898]

On 8/5/2017 at 4:54 PM, Drasnighta said:

Its a case of explicits.

 

Leia only triggers if you spend "A Command Dial" on the command.

 

If you spend "A Command Dial and a Token", you have spent "A Command Dial and a Token"...  Not "A Command Dial".

 

Because there are 3 delineated types of command ordering:

1) - A Dial
2) - A Token
3) - A Dial AND a Token

Thanks!

I appreciate it.

[Stovrose38 33]

Ok, I'm going to throw a different scenario at this...

 

What if I spend the dial with Leia, can I bank a token and then use the token effect?

 

Example:

Spend Concetrate fire dial

Receive a token (from the dial effect)

Use a reroll during a shot this turn, without spending the token I just received (The token ability granted by Leia)

 

 

[Lemmiwinks86 934]

15 minutes ago, Stovrose38 said:

Ok, I'm going to throw a different scenario at this...

 

What if I spend the dial with Leia, can I bank a token and then use the token effect?

 

Example:

Spend Concetrate fire dial

Receive a token (from the dial effect)

Use a reroll during a shot this turn, without spending the token I just received (The token ability granted by Leia)

 

 

No, because you never receive an actual token, you just resolve the dial effect as if you also spend a matching token, but that token never existed