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Blail Blerg

Reminder: Wave5 2 ship large-turret dominance is bad for the game.

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Reminder of our darkest hour.  

We now have 2 ships: one large ship turret + a small ship with TLT (another turret) at PS 9 and 10. High PS also.  

 

(I'll note that 3 torp scout pre-nerf was perhaps the other darkest hour, but even then, its still about that same overpowered ship)

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1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

 

And hell yeah!  Its a great opinion! 

Debatable, and that doesn't make it a fact.

 

There is little proof that Dengar Nym is dominating currently (in any case, results seem to hint that Biggs/Rex/Jess/Low is dominating more) and there is also little proof that 'wave 5 2 ship large turret dominance' is in any way worse than any single archetype dominance

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21 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Debatable, and that doesn't make it a fact.

 

There is little proof that Dengar Nym is dominating currently (in any case, results seem to hint that Biggs/Rex/Jess/Low is dominating more) and there is also little proof that 'wave 5 2 ship large turret dominance' is in any way worse than any single archetype dominance

I maintain the jury is still out on Dengar Nym being dominant.

But I would not disagree that a two ship meta is a bad thing.

The 4-ship Rebel build may be somewhat concerning... but I'm reasonably sure the designers are watching to see just how strong it is, before releasing a tailored nerf to Biggs a couple weeks before some major american tournament or another, to keep it in check in just the right amounts. It's now practically tradition, and I wouldn't be practicing such squads too heavily without a B-list in the wings... just in case.

Edited by Reiver

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To throw an alternate view point...

I think 2 Ship meta was BEST meta.

2 Ship vs 2 Ship is basically jousting, min-maxing each trade, range control, disengaging and re-engaging, focus fire, no different than Joust vs Joust, just with Turrets.

2 Ship vs Joust list is incredibly fun for both sides, when both players are playing well and understand the 2 Ship style game play. Winning with an in-efficient 2 Ship list vs an efficient Joust list is not easy. It's the in-efficient Joust lists that had it rough.

2 Ship vs Ace lists. Still fun and challenging for both sides. Autothrusters, both lists trying to avoid arcs, and now the existence of Omega Leader being able to 1v1 a 60 pt PWT. Good stuff.

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Having to get things in arc and maneuvering well are core aspects of this game. Turrets ignore these, this is fact.

When everything is a turret or half of a turret, you're no longer playing X-Wing, you're just beating each other over the head with card combos. What, are two turrets not going to have shots on each other? Are you going to dodge another turret's arc with your turret?

Just as painting requires skill and Religious Procession in the Kursk Province is great art and randomly splattering paint on a canvas doesn't require any skill and isn't good art, flying fat turrets against each other doesn't count as X-Wing. There is no effort involved, you've ignored too many vital aspects of this game that make it interesting.

Sure, it's still called X-Wing, but Nintendo still makes Paper Mario games and there hasn't truly been a Paper Mario since the Gamecube. Turrets dumb down the game and strip out most of what makes it fun.

Now within the last few waves, power creep has been such that turrets have started to take skill because their lazy easy mode gameplay with 3-CPO and Predator and Engine Upgrade hasn't been enough to carry you. But this last wave is reversing that.

And before you tell me how much getting things in arc matters for Dengar or Rey, bull. Getting things in arc with those ships is trivial with their white Segnor's Loops. Maybe your argument would have some weight to it if Rey or Dengar weren't baby's first jouster.

Playing this game during wave 5 was awful unless you had a Phantom and/or fat turret. However bad U-Boats or Palp Aces or Parattanni or Dengaroo got, waves 4, 5, and 6 were much worse.

Turret apologists like to continually shout that opinions aren't facts and that it's all personal taste. Well, it's a fact that certain ships have arc restrictions and others don't. This means that turrets categorically require less skill than jousters, you always have shots.

Maybe if the Falcon or Jumpmaster or Shadowcaster or 2400 had HWK dials this would be a different discussion. But with the stupid dials they have there isn't enough downside.

Edited by SaltMaster 5000

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48 minutes ago, GrogEgrog said:

Reminder: Opinions aren't facts. 

Sure. But in terms of player satisfaction, I think a lot of long term players will say the competitive game hit its lowest point in the Wave 5-6 metagame. It never quite reached consensus level, but it was bad, and the developers' attempts to fix the situation introduced Autothrusters and Twin Laser Turret, both of which cause issues themselves to this day. While I'd say the overall number of discontented threads on the forum was the same, the community was significantly smaller then.

 

That being said, it is way too early to say Nym+Dengar is the return of the fat turret metagame.

Edited by Squark
New forum does not recognize bbcode >:|

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1 minute ago, Squark said:

Sure. But in terms of player satisfaction, I think a lot of long term players will say the competitive game hit its lowest point in the Wave 5-6 metagame. It never quite reached consensus level, but it was bad, and the developers' attempts to fix the situation introduced Autothrusters and Twin Laser Turret, both of which cause issues themselves to this day. While I'd say the overall number of discontented threads on the forum was the same, the community was significantly smaller then.

 

That being said, it is way too early to say Nym+Dengar is the return of the fat turret metagame.

It's not just Nym Dengar, it's also Nym Miranda.

Bombs have gotten to the point where if my ship and Miranda are face to face at range 3, I take a Cluster Mine. And I can't get behind these ships because they have infinite bombs now.

Either you outright wipe these ships off the map with an alpha strike in a turn or two, or you just fly turrets yourself and get shots on their turrets while not having to point your ship at them so that way you can't take bombs.

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11 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

It was cancer then and it's cancer now.

And yet you don't see people complaining about it like they do with anything combined with Nym. We've survived worse. Miranda Dash isn't dominating and lists with Nym are too new to fully determine it's long term impact. Two ship Turret builds have didn't just exist during wave 5. They've been around this whole time and the game hasn't self destructed.

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1 hour ago, Squark said:

Sure. But in terms of player satisfaction, I think a lot of long term players will say the competitive game hit its lowest point in the Wave 5-6 metagame. It never quite reached consensus level, but it was bad, and the developers' attempts to fix the situation introduced Autothrusters and Twin Laser Turret, both of which cause issues themselves to this day. While I'd say the overall number of discontented threads on the forum was the same, the community was significantly smaller then.

 

That being said, it is way too early to say Nym+Dengar is the return of the fat turret metagame.

So still opinion. And by your own admission the opinion of a vocal minoriy. Got it. 

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49 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

And yet you don't see people complaining about it like they do with anything combined with Nym. We've survived worse. Miranda Dash isn't dominating and lists with Nym are too new to fully determine it's long term impact. Two ship Turret builds have didn't just exist during wave 5. They've been around this whole time and the game hasn't self destructed.

Miranda Dash wasn't really dominant.  Not like 2 Falcons, Falcon and something, RAC + Soontir/vader/Whisper (during wave 5), Dash + Chewie, Dash Corran. 

We see now Dengar Tel, Fenn 2 jumps, 3 jumps torps, Dengar Nym.  Do you notice something yet? 

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2 hours ago, phild0 said:

To throw an alternate view point...

I think 2 Ship meta was BEST meta.

2 Ship vs 2 Ship is basically jousting, min-maxing each trade, range control, disengaging and re-engaging, focus fire, no different than Joust vs Joust, just with Turrets.

2 Ship vs Joust list is incredibly fun for both sides, when both players are playing well and understand the 2 Ship style game play. Winning with an in-efficient 2 Ship list vs an efficient Joust list is not easy. It's the in-efficient Joust lists that had it rough.

2 Ship vs Ace lists. Still fun and challenging for both sides. Autothrusters, both lists trying to avoid arcs, and now the existence of Omega Leader being able to 1v1 a 60 pt PWT. Good stuff.

All I can say was that was the time when Xwing had the least attendance, and the most startified meta. I dunno.  Pass.  

 

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5 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

We see now Dengar Tel, Fenn 2 jumps, 3 jumps torps, Dengar Nym.  Do you notice something yet? 

Let's see: Jumpmaster + Jumpmaster, Jumpmasters + buddy, 3 Jumpmasters, Jumpmaster + buddy.

I think I can see the real problem.

Edited by DR4CO

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4 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Let's see: Jumpaster + Jumpmaster, Jumpasters + buddy, 3 Jumpasters, Jumpmaster + buddy.

I think I can see the real problem.

What are you takling about.  I just see a beautiful self contained balance.  

 

"Intra-faction balance"  =)

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1 hour ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Having to get things in arc and maneuvering well are core aspects of this game. Turrets ignore these, this is fact.

When everything is a turret or half of a turret, you're no longer playing X-Wing, you're just beating each other over the head with card combos. What, are two turrets not going to have shots on each other? Are you going to dodge another turret's arc with your turret?

Just as painting requires skill and Religious Procession in the Kursk Province is great art and randomly splattering paint on a canvas doesn't require any skill and isn't good art, flying fat turrets against each other doesn't count as X-Wing. There is no effort involved, you've ignored too many vital aspects of this game that make it interesting.

Flying Fat Turrets against each other is XWM if the designers say it is.  It's just not Star Wars, which this game has left in the dust long, long ago in a FLGS far, far away.

And as for great art, I think you got this

350px-Kurskaya_korennaya.jpg

confused with this

on-the-terrace-1881.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Miranda Dash wasn't really dominant.  Not like 2 Falcons, Falcon and something, RAC + Soontir/vader/Whisper (during wave 5), Dash + Chewie, Dash Corran. 

We see now Dengar Tel, Fenn 2 jumps, 3 jumps torps, Dengar Nym.  Do you notice something yet? 

Yes, that there have been problem lists before and there will be others again. Part of any living game. Two ship lists are an archetype that have been around for a long time. Nym popping up isn't some sort of second coming of a plague. 

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12 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

...Maybe if the Falcon or Jumpmaster or Shadowcaster or 2400 had HWK dials this would be a different discussion. But with the stupid dials they have there isn't enough downside.

Exactly.  A large base ship should not be able to outmaneuver a small based ship.  Even the Falcon had a hard time dodging TIE Fighters in ESB; Slave 1 basically did a K-turn to get behind Kenobi in AOTC, not out turn or juke him.  (Also, the Ghost never out flew anyone either.) That is why large ships have turrets, they can't dodge.  

 

"So what we'll be calling on is blunt force trauma....Let's start building some hurtin bombs."

 

 

Edited by Ccwebb
Spelling and punctuation

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I don't think things have shaped up yet from the latest wave to declare a dominant list, but at least there seems to be a nice variety of lists winning and showing up to tournaments. We will soon, though after nationals, have another release that could shake things up a bit. The Jumpmaster will be around for a while, but at least all three pilots see play. 

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