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The p.s. 11 imperial cruise missle list is probably the top dog as far as squads go.

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10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I woudn't be. The game is so diverse now that you don't have to play along. You can also fly a list that simply doesn't care.

Considering how this is a thread complaining about a jumpmaster for a whole year of dominance and a new very strong ship to go back to the hated Wave 5 2 ship turret mode of the game... this is a bit ironic, no? 

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20 hours ago, phild0 said:

Also, TL Ordnance bypasses Biggs. Id knock out one of the support. Maybe even Jess, as she is the real damage in the list.

It's hard to kill Jess. She gets rerolls on her greens, and if you roll crits, they go straight onto the Auztick. Plus Lowhrick can give her an extra evade.

 It is possible, but you'd better have sacrificed your best goat to the dice gods the night before. 

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That list really makes me wish I could run two TIE/Ds with Ruthlessness and Arc Caster. 6 damage AoE in the first turn to target of choice. Redirect THAT.

But no, FFG decided to add a "No imperials" clause to it (Anyone else feel like Imperials are forced to play with a subset of the mechanics allowed to the other factions?). Ruthlessness TLTs would be a fun option to try and crack it though. Edit: And TLTs are immune to selflessness, as a bonus. Sure you have to shoot Biggs first, but...

Edited by Polaritie

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1 hour ago, DodgingArcs said:

 

Taking Engine off Vader for GCs is just a bad idea IMO. I've flown Vader a lot competively. He is a monster. He pretty much is only afraid of multiple, and I say multiple, TLTs. But the minute you turn him into a one trick pony with Cruise and GC you start forgoing his power. 

The thing is you shouldn't need GC. You should have Target Lock and Focus (maybe Palp). If you don't it's probably not worth firing them. 

But Vader is still a pure Arc Dodger and sometimes trying to fire them on the opening engagement will just weaken your approach.  Personally I think and list with Vader is going to need some other styles of ship to create more problems for your opponent. 

As has been discussed, the Cruise Missile makes you predictable. You need yo use that to your advantage so that you are not predictable. Threaten the Cruise but move in ways that give you an advantage, use ships that can take advantage of people biting on the Cruise Missile carriers predictable move. 

Agree 100%.  The Cruise Missile supplements Vader beautifully.  Long range is his weakness, and the Cruise is terrific at long range.  Opponents who try to avoid the Cruise Missile are brought into Vader's sweet spot of Range 1, where he does a ton of damage and arc dodges very well.

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For fun, the ultimate alpha is Roark and three greens, all with deadeye, two with swarm leader, and one with a score to settle. Ps 12 alpha strike! Probably not competitive (too hard to get those arcs right) but it can dish out a lot of damage if the alpha strike is delivered !

Edited by sozin

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So what are the ways to counter this? Esp. if a newer player takes a list that cannot do the Beyond Range 3 to Range 1 jump? 
I'd like to gather and translate tips for our locals. 

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3 hours ago, Polda said:

So what are the ways to counter this? Esp. if a newer player takes a list that cannot do the Beyond Range 3 to Range 1 jump? 
I'd like to gather and translate tips for our locals. 

After suffering my only loss to it at a Store Championships, I have been looking for options. I mostly fly imperial, so I have only looked there. Unfortunately, I have not found anything I like yet. That said, here are some of the options.

  • Countdown does not need to fear them as she can cancel the results at the cost of one damage. If Captain Yorr is in the list she can survive all three (not that your opponent would waste them on her).
  • Counter Measures will remove one target lock and should give your large ship one more turn to live.
  • Dark Curse should have better odds of surviving a Cruise Missile.
  • Captain Kagi can force them to target lock him. With Reinforced Deflectors it will take three all Cruise Missiles to remove him in the opening volley.

The following list is a crazy one I want to test just once. I nicknamed it "One Shot This!":

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Hull Upgrade (3)

"Dark Curse" (16)
Hull Upgrade (3)

"Countdown" (20)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Captain Yorr (24)
Reinforced Deflectors (3)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

In the end, I will likely not counter the alpha strike list in Squad Building, but rather practice the approach until I master facing the enemy at range one on the first engagement.

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On 7/22/2017 at 10:48 PM, HungryFFG said:

This is the base of the list. It has 2 points left over for Vadar's System slot and Quickdraw's Tech upgrade.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/x1 (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

The Inquisitor (25)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/v1 (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This list has numerous weaknesses across the meta, and some of that partially due to actually requiring some decent flying to max out usefulness of those missiles. Without Autothrusters or his Evade, Inquisitor has a depressing chance of dying to return fire round one, or getting melted by turrets soon after...

Vader has no EU and no ATC. He's fully safe for your opponent to ignore after the Cruise Missile (though his generally a platform that is a solid choice for the missile), as he does pitiful damage and has a lousy dial for staying in a fight.

On 7/23/2017 at 4:00 AM, LordBlades said:

The Imperial has Vader and Inquisitor. If he can't outfly a bunch of x-wings with those two ships, odds are he needs to 'git gud'.

Vader can't outfly much in this build. His dial is pretty garbage. Even the Wookie is more likely to be able to put out consistent shots, due to how much space his arc covers. Inquisitor needs to get lucky after he shoots his Cruise Missiles -- he'll have an evade, which is nice, but no Autothrusters means his low health pool require the green dice to do a decent amount of work on the first pass. He should be the first target for the Junkyard player, imo.

On 7/23/2017 at 5:59 AM, LordBlades said:

I agree 100%. However, even without these:

 

-Vader has 2 actions per turn (and repositioning at PS11)

-Inquisitor has a dial lightyears ahead x-wings (and repositioning at PS10)

- Quickdraw has the rear arc (and repositioning at PS11)

 

It's not as easy as the standard builds for these ships, but you still have the upper hand manoeuvring-wise. If you fail to capitalise on it, you probably got outplayed , and not 'out-listed'.

Vader has a barrel roll for re-positioning. This is better than nothing, but not that difficult to predict.

Inquisitor has more position options, but then isn't getting any mods at all, due to no PtL or Autothrusters.

Quickdraw is still a threat, sure. Until her shields are gone, then she's a bit meh vs many lists.

 

5 hours ago, Polda said:

So what are the ways to counter this? Esp. if a newer player takes a list that cannot do the Beyond Range 3 to Range 1 jump? 
I'd like to gather and translate tips for our locals. 

Against this specific list? Focus on Inquisitor, as his damage output isn't awful, even without PtL. Try to control the range band for engagements whenever possible -- just because it isn't easy, doesn't mean it can't be done -- remember, the enemy needs to dial in a 4 speed move for full effect. It's not just about getting into range 1 -- being in range 2-3 after your opponent dialed in a 1-2 speed maneuver isn't the problem.

Vader is pretty safe to ignore, if built specifically this way. His missile will hurt, but afterwards... Meh.

Quickdraw is a target of opportunity only, and only when no one else is in her arc. It's a tricky ship, especially sitting on Cruise Missiles.

Best thing is if you can split what the missiles are being fired at. But it's not so bad if you lose one ship to their alpha strike -- not only did they just spend 9 points one the salvo, but this list also spent their mod slot and, likely, their EPT slot (if you're lower ps anyway) just to pull it off.

1 hour ago, HungryFFG said:

"Omega Leader" (21)

 

Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Hull Upgrade (3)

"Dark Curse" (16)
Hull Upgrade (3)

"Countdown" (20)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Adaptive Ailerons (0)

Captain Yorr (24)
Reinforced Deflectors (3)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Tactical Jammer (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

In the end, I will likely not counter the alpha strike list in Squad Building, but rather practice the approach until I master facing the enemy at range one on the first engagement.

The damage from this list isn't really on par with what you need, because you still need to kill the ships... And be ready to deal with other things in the meta, if at an event. It could work, though, as the Alpha list above is definitely populated by mostly anemic versions of the pilots. Alpha strikes that don't make the same sacrifices, however, could still likely have answers to all of these ships.

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Am starting to think that triple PS10-11 Ace is too expensive to fit in 100, if only by a few points. Maybe 2 Aces fully loaded up with missiles and a cheap TLT could be better? Be able to get that ATC on Vader, AT+PTL on Inq and LWF on Quickdraw might go a long way even if the Alpha is weakened.

Edited by Chibi-Nya

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5 hours ago, Polda said:

So what are the ways to counter this? Esp. if a newer player takes a list that cannot do the Beyond Range 3 to Range 1 jump? 
I'd like to gather and translate tips for our locals. 

Any alpha strike can be messed up by:

Range 4-to-Range-1 dash.

  • As you noted, it's not easy. But as @Chibi-Nya suggests, it does work.
  • Against cruise missiles it's easier than you think (because the firing ships cannot be doing speed 1 'slow' straights or else the cruise missiles are worthless).
  • Pretty much any squad can do this, if you can master the timing. Assuming you start just outside range 3, if the firing ship is only doing a speed 1 straight move (because they've got concussion or homing missiles not cruise missiles) then a speed 4 move on the part of the 'target' will get them safely into range 1 and inside the missile's minimum range.
  • To get maximum effect with cruise missiles, the firer won't be doing speed 1, they'll be doing a speed 4 straight. The massive combined speed means that even at speed 4 without boost, the two ships can be half the board apart and still end up at range 1 with no missile shot allowed.

Disallow the shot.

  • You need a target lock (or focus for Deadeye), and an opportunity to attack.
  • Countermeasures and Wes Janson can mess up the first, as can anything generically which dishes out stress (Snap Shot Tactician Major Rhymer) or disallows actions (Carnor Jax, Palob Godahli, or Hotshot Copilot for Deadeye).
  • Kylo Ren on a high Pilot Skill ship can Blinded Pilot a target before it can shoot.

Mess with the dice pool

  • You may not get a range 3 bonus against a cruise missile, but you do get "obstructed shot" bonuses.
  • Assuming a target lock-ed missile, sensor jammer is really annoying.
  • Anything which takes away stacked dice modifiers (Dark Curse, Omega Leader) really bites into the value of those shots.
  • If you can prevent them doing a speed 3+ move (mines, ion tokens, you name it) then cruise missiles are pretty wimpy.

Share, mitigate or regenerate the damage

  • This is what Rebel Jankyard does - R4-D6 can cut the worst of a missile hit, and selflessness and draw their fire can 'smear' hits around the squad so no-one actually dies.
  • Sensor Jammer Xizor could do the same - although you can't force your opponent to fire at him.
  • With 5 dice incoming, triggering Reinforced deflectors is all but a certainty.

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6 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

 Any alpha strike can be messed up by:

[...]

  • If you can prevent them doing a speed 3+ move (mines, ion tokens, you name it) then cruise missiles are pretty wimpy.

I'd like to emphasize this one. But not just by ions but simply by flying!

Cruisemissiles need a 4speed maneuver, and that's only possible as a straight 4.

I don't know about you guys, but setting up diagonally and drawing them into the asteroids usually prevents a 4 straight pretty effectively. An alpha strike wants to focus fire, and disrupting formation is a good idea against that.

And even if they don't come into the middle of the board, you'll probably get an approach vector that makes a 4 straight+range2 almost impossible.

As someone who does/will use cruise missiles frequently and in the future, one option is to use them after a 4/5 kturn if you can get the TL earlier. Maybe keep that in mind, too, when approaching.

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1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'd like to emphasize this one. But not just by ions but simply by flying!

Cruisemissiles need a 4speed maneuver, and that's only possible as a straight 4.

I don't know about you guys, but setting up diagonally and drawing them into the asteroids usually prevents a 4 straight pretty effectively. An alpha strike wants to focus fire, and disrupting formation is a good idea against that.

And even if they don't come into the middle of the board, you'll probably get an approach vector that makes a 4 straight+range2 almost impossible.

As someone who does/will use cruise missiles frequently and in the future, one option is to use them after a 4/5 kturn if you can get the TL earlier. Maybe keep that in mind, too, when approaching.

I would like to point to that speed 4 thing. This is not true. You don't need to aim for the 5 dice attack, the 4 dice with mods and range bonus negation is still good if you are doing it with three ships. If you see a opportunity to do the 5 dice on at least one ship, go for it but you do not necessarily need to. 

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4 minutes ago, Polda said:

I would like to point to that speed 4 thing. This is not true. You don't need to aim for the 5 dice attack, the 4 dice with mods and range bonus negation is still good if you are doing it with three ships. If you see a opportunity to do the 5 dice on at least one ship, go for it but you do not necessarily need to. 

Hm... I'm inclined to agree. The other 4dice missiles are 1-2pt more expensive, AND most force you to spend the TL (except Homing)

Yeah, I do agree with you. What I said is not right. Maybe players will try to do it and thus 'sabotage' their approach

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30 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

Am starting to think that triple PS10-11 Ace is too expensive to fit in 100, if only by a few points. Maybe 2 Aces fully loaded up with missiles and a cheap TLT could be better? Be able to get that ATC on Vader, AT+PTL on Inq and LWF on Quickdraw might go a long way even if the Alpha is weakened.

Omega L

Not great v bombs but completely counters lo who says defender adds evade 

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9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hm... I'm inclined to agree. The other 4dice missiles are 1-2pt more expensive, AND most force you to spend the TL (except Homing)

Yeah, I do agree with you. What I said is not right. Maybe players will try to do it and thus 'sabotage' their approach

To add to this.  I'm rapidly starting to think Cruise Missiles are much more useful as an opportunistic and disruptive weapon than an alpha strike weapon.  I'm looking at some of my favorite ships right now:  Vader, TIE/D defenders, and Quickdraw.  All of these ships are brutal close range combatants, and for Defenders and SFs, they have limited arc dodging capability that is made much more potent at Range 1.  If the target of their attention hangs out at Range 2-3, serve up that 4-5 dice attack.  If the target closes to Range 1, they do their normal beatdown, then flip and fire of a 4-5 dice Cruise Missile next turn.  

Edited by Biophysical

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Just now, Biophysical said:

I'm rapidly starting to think Cruise Missiles are much more useful as an opportunistic and disruptive weapon than an alpha strike weapon.

Which is how I've been using them exclusively so far, didn't get to play an alphastrike with them yet. I much prefer them to be a backup threat

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Agreed, better as a destructive surprise attack than primary alpha.  I love these missles on Vader.  There's the initial threat, then nobody sees the 4k into cruise missles coming.  I actually think Juno could benefit the best from them with adapting into the proper maneuver (plus she doesn't need Engine like Vader does)

My alpha list is vader with engine and cruise missles, Quickdraw with missles and guidance, and OL for 99 points.  I don't think 3 of them at 10-11 is all that great, but it will remove Dengar from your meta :)

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58 minutes ago, ArbitraryNerd said:

The damage from this list isn't really on par with what you need, because you still need to kill the ships... And be ready to deal with other things in the meta, if at an event. It could work, though, as the Alpha list above is definitely populated by mostly anemic versions of the pilots. Alpha strikes that don't make the same sacrifices, however, could still likely have answers to all of these ships.

You left off the part of the quote where I said it was crazy. I do not intend to bring this to an event. It cannot soak the same amount of damage that Rebel Junkyard can, nor (as you said) does it have the fire power needed. That said, I think it would be fun to fly casually ... once.

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1 hour ago, Chibi-Nya said:

Rule of 11, I think it was? Youtube it @HungryFFG, it's the perfect answer to achieving this!

That is the basis of it. However, there is a difference between knowing the rule and putting it into practice. I for one need more practice.

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51 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Which is how I've been using them exclusively so far, didn't get to play an alphastrike with them yet. I much prefer them to be a backup threat

Yes! I took them to a SC in Tie/SF's this weekend and did okay, but my losses were largely due to me trying to rush into a speed 4 Alpha for no reason. Flying normally and conservatively and then shooting them after a sloop is a much much better idea I think. And if they run away and you do manage to chase them with a speed 4....

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

As someone who does/will use cruise missiles frequently and in the future, one option is to use them after a 4/5 kturn if you can get the TL earlier. Maybe keep that in mind, too, when approaching.

From my short time using them I think this is important. I've had way more success and damage output from using them after a k-turn/sloop/etc. then on the initial approach. Especially on SF's and TA's where the usual loadout means you'll have that lock after the flip.

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