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Velvetelvis

The p.s. 11 imperial cruise missle list is probably the top dog as far as squads go.

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This is the base of the list. It has 2 points left over for Vadar's System slot and Quickdraw's Tech upgrade.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/x1 (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

The Inquisitor (25)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/v1 (1)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

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2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes that's an option. So if Jess has selflessness:

12 damage on 6 hull

-1 reinforce evade

-0-6 green dice

-0-3 for draw their fire

-1 and discard integrated astromech

thats anything from 10 to 1 damage. But the chances to survive are still quite high.

But at least not guaranteed anymore.

 

(for completion: Lowhhrick with selflessness is the one mentioned above)

so Jess+Selflessness means she can die to an alphastrike. Maybe it's the right call against other lists, but clearly not against ImpAlphas

Don't forget that she will be able to re-roll her green dice for each missile due to her pilot ability, so her odds of getting evades is greatly improved.

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3 hours ago, phild0 said:

Also, TL Ordnance bypasses Biggs. Id knock out one of the support. Maybe even Jess, as she is the real damage in the list.

That's not the point. The point is that the other ships can divert and prevent damage by selflessness and draw their fire. And if your alphastrike leaves an undamaged Biggs next to a heavily damaged-but-still-alive ship, then you wasted the shots until Biggs and this other ship die. And both will be able to return fire, possibly for several rounds. Which is what you don't want for an alpha strike list.

2 hours ago, HungryFFG said:

Don't forget that she will be able to re-roll her green dice for each missile due to her pilot ability, so her odds of getting evades is greatly improved.

Good point, thanks! This gives her what, like 37% chance for 2 evades if you keep the focus? And 56% with a focus?
So a much higher chance for 1 evade. That means 3 damage are all but sure to be prevented. Also the chance for a crit is at almost 100% for each attack, so she's close to 8 guaranteed.

1 hour ago, HammerGibbens said:

Oh shoot, I forgot about Guidance Chips.

That's a 97% chance to get 5 hits if you have Focus and TL,

63% for 5 hits with just TL.

89% for >=4 hits. But of course the whole thing can be done with 15 hits+crits, too.
The assumptions are that each missile has a crit, and that dice rolls are average for the defender. Also I don't consider double damage by crits.

  • Vs Biggs (5HP, R4D6, IA): 15 - 3DTF - 1Evade - 4 selflessness - 3 R4D6 - 1IA - 0 to 6 green rolls = 0-3 damage that slips through (only 4 by selflessness because 1 is a crit)
  • Vs Lowhhrick (with Selflessness, 9HP, reinforce): 15 - 3 reinforce - 3 DTF - 0 to 3 green rolls = 6-9 damage, so 5 to 0 remaining
  • Vs Lowhhrick (with DTF, 9HP, reinforce): 15 - 3 reinforce - 4 selflessness - 0 to 3 green rolls = 5-8 damage, so 4 to 1 remaining
  • Vs Jess (with Selflessness, IA, rerolls, focus, 6 HP): 15 - 1 evade - 3 DTF - 0 to 6 green rolls  - 1IA = 4-10 damage, but with a very high likelihood 4-7 and still ok (37%) just 4.
  • Vs Jess (with DTF, IA, rerolls, focus, 6HP): 15 - 1 evade - 4 Selflessness - 0 to 6 green rolls - 1IA = 3-9 damage, very likely 3-6 and still ok just 3
  • Vs Rex (3 HP): 15 - 1 evade - 4 selflessness - 3 DTF - 0 to9 green rolls (probably focus action?) = 0-7 damage. Noteworthy to say that 4 green results are very likely (2 with focus, and 1 out of 3) at above 75%. He needs just a slightly positive variance and he survives the alpha strike!

This tells us four things:

1. You really need the 15 hits and have to hope that none are crits. Just remove damage accordingly if you roll less. E.g. only 12 means Jess or Rex pretty surely survives.
2. Lowhhrick and Biggs can't be destroyed in the alphastrike
3. Jess with Selflessness is maybe your best target (I wasn't aware of that!), otherwise take Rex.
4. The build with Jess+Selflessness and Lowhhrick+DTF is better against alphastrikes.

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You're telling me its okay for this game to toss 12-15 modified dice at a Tie Fighter and that's the premier of great play in this game?  This game is becoming a crock of shtt.  (Or 12-15dice at an Xwing and see it not die?)

 

Like really.  Why is this game even good anymore? 

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24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

You're telling me its okay for this game to toss 12-15 modified dice at a Tie Fighter and that's the premier of great play in this game?  This game is becoming a crock of shtt.  (Or 12-15dice at an Xwing and see it not die?)

 

Like really.  Why is this game even good anymore? 

Well ****, I think so.

But as I said, that's a fringe case. You could also save the missiles for a later time when e.g. Biggs died already.

Also, to point out for the other side, these results mean that the Rebel blows basically all of his defensive options to counter the alpha AND deal 7+ damage. Which could also be seen as a success of the alphastrike. The Rebel list lacks offense and repositioning, so all this theorycrafting does of course not mean that the Rebel will win.

All I'm saying is that a super defensive list that's built for defense can shrugg off a 15dice attack - barely

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Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Well ****, I think so.

But as I said, that's a fringe case. You could also save the missiles for a later time when e.g. Biggs died already.

Also, to point out for the other side, these results mean that the Rebel blows basically all of his defensive options to counter the alpha AND deal 7+ damage. Which could also be seen as a success of the alphastrike. The Rebel list lacks offense and repositioning, so all this theorycrafting does of course not mean that the Rebel will win.

All I'm saying is that a super defensive list that's built for defense can shrugg off a 15dice attack - barely

Mm.  Though I dont erally know the viability of flying around it.  Haven't had enough play with it.  I tend to find I have a hard time trying to get around a problem. 

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45 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Mm.  Though I dont erally know the viability of flying around it.  Haven't had enough play with it.  I tend to find I have a hard time trying to get around a problem. 

The Imperial has Vader and Inquisitor. If he can't outfly a bunch of x-wings with those two ships, odds are he needs to 'git gud'.

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38 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

The Imperial has Vader and Inquisitor. If he can't outfly a bunch of x-wings with those two ships, odds are he needs to 'git gud'.

while I agree, it's also noteworthy to mention that Inquisitor has no PTL, Quickdraw has no Expertise, ASTS or Pattern Analyzer, and Vader has no Juke or Intensity. So it's definitely harder than with these common upgrades.

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So they really need PS 11 in this list, or is that just a Fenn counter? I mean, Rebel Junkyard loses the PS war anyway, right?

You could tech to counter that instead, and accept a tougher fight against super-high PS lists in return for getting better wins against, y'know, everything else.

Or did I miss a memo, and we're back into PS wars at a point not seen since the nerfing of Whisper?

Edited by Reiver

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22 minutes ago, Reiver said:

So they really need PS 11 in this list, or is that just a Fenn counter? I mean, Rebel Junkyard loses the PS war anyway, right?

You could tech to counter that instead, and accept a tougher fight against super-high PS lists in return for getting better wins against, y'know, everything else.

Or did I miss a memo, and we're back into PS wars at a point not seen since the nerfing of Whisper?

From what I've read in various threads, the PS war is back due to Nym - who melts like butter against these 15 dice. 10 health, 1 green die, and no defensive options from what I've seen apart from the extra evade if behind a bomb. That's 11-12 damage expected at over 75% (and 9 damage at over 90%!).

I also have not yet seen a Nym/Dengar list with torps on Dengar, and many/most builds do not give Nym a strong missile/torpedo attack. And his TLT definitely won't kill off anything in the first round. But you want to get the TL, and so you need to move after the PS10 Nym.

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

while I agree, it's also noteworthy to mention that Inquisitor has no PTL, Quickdraw has no Expertise, ASTS or Pattern Analyzer, and Vader has no Juke or Intensity. So it's definitely harder than with these common upgrades.

I agree 100%. However, even without these:

 

-Vader has 2 actions per turn (and repositioning at PS11)

-Inquisitor has a dial lightyears ahead x-wings (and repositioning at PS10)

- Quickdraw has the rear arc (and repositioning at PS11)

 

It's not as easy as the standard builds for these ships, but you still have the upper hand manoeuvring-wise. If you fail to capitalise on it, you probably got outplayed , and not 'out-listed'.

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13 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Obviously not an easy auto win. But...it's got the advantage over....everything I can think of right now.

Erasing trouble immediately seems pretty...pretty........pretty good. 

 

 X-WING%2BMISS-%2BCRUISE%2521.png  _heart__rvmp_by_bad_blood.gif Ghostly_Skull.gif

X-WING%2BMISS-%2BCRUISE%2521.png   X-WING%2BMISS-%2BCRUISE%2521.png

Edited by Joe Boss Red Seven

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

From what I've read in various threads, the PS war is back due to Nym - who melts like butter against these 15 dice. 10 health, 1 green die, and no defensive options from what I've seen apart from the extra evade if behind a bomb. That's 11-12 damage expected at over 75% (and 9 damage at over 90%!).

I also have not yet seen a Nym/Dengar list with torps on Dengar, and many/most builds do not give Nym a strong missile/torpedo attack. And his TLT definitely won't kill off anything in the first round. But you want to get the TL, and so you need to move after the PS10 Nym.

Well, I'm thankful for the clarification.

Incredibly sad to see the PS wars firing up again, but thankful for the clarification.

:(

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1 minute ago, Reiver said:

Well, I'm thankful for the clarification.

Incredibly sad to see the PS wars firing up again, but thankful for the clarification.

:(

I woudn't be. The game is so diverse now that you don't have to play along. You can also fly a list that simply doesn't care.

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10 hours ago, phild0 said:

PS11 Imp Alpha is one of those "I'm gonna have to try it, see it, and play against it before I lose my skeptism" lists.

Absolutely. 

I get the concept but Cruise Missiles aren't always going to work on the first pass. 

Vader is heads and shoulders above everyone else in terms of getting them off with 5 dice because he has a boost to change angle or get range on a long approach, assuming he got the TL earlier. Vader also has 2 actions which gives him the opportunity to have TL and Focus. 

But it's so much work for 1 shot compared to Fenn who takes these shots all the time. 

It definitely adds some teeth to Vader and makes approaching him tricky, which in turn allows Vader to flank. All of these things are good. But not if you take Engine off Vader for Chips like Vader, QD, Quizzy list does. 

I think the idea is fun, and I definitely think having alpha strike potential in an Imperial list is a good idea atm, but I'm not sure it should be your only idea. 

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There's a few things to consider, here.  First, there's a lot of quality options for that third ship, and it might be worthwhile to take something else instead of the Inquisitor if you're looking to tech against Jankyard.  Second, to maneuverable Imperial ships, especially Quickdraw with her rear arc, it's reasonable to expect to have Biggs occasionally out of arc. It's not a situation where a 1 health wookie stays alive until Biggs is dead.

But seriously, everyone maybe needs to take a long, hard look at bombs.  Action bombs get around targeting priority disruptions as well as token damage mitigation, reveal bombs just hit everyone.  Is it your day, Deathrain?  Not that he fits into the PS11 squad.

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2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

There's a few things to consider, here.  First, there's a lot of quality options for that third ship, and it might be worthwhile to take something else instead of the Inquisitor if you're looking to tech against Jankyard.  Second, to maneuverable Imperial ships, especially Quickdraw with her rear arc, it's reasonable to expect to have Biggs occasionally out of arc. It's not a situation where a 1 health wookie stays alive until Biggs is dead.

But seriously, everyone maybe needs to take a long, hard look at bombs.  Action bombs get around targeting priority disruptions as well as token damage mitigation, reveal bombs just hit everyone.  Is it your day, Deathrain?  Not that he fits into the PS11 squad.

Bombs aren't as good at cracking high HP low agility ships though. They help (especially clusters), but...

I suppose Cad Bane puts the EV of a cluster drop at 4 damage though, which is pretty solid. Bomblets hit 1.5 damage per? So some potential with Scurgg. Dunno that Deathrain's going to get there. Deathfire has the advantage of being cheaper (deathrain is FAR easier to stick the mines with though, so...).

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4 minutes ago, Polaritie said:

Bombs aren't as good at cracking high HP low agility ships though. They help (especially clusters), but...

I suppose Cad Bane puts the EV of a cluster drop at 4 damage though, which is pretty solid. Bomblets hit 1.5 damage per? So some potential with Scurgg. Dunno that Deathrain's going to get there. Deathfire has the advantage of being cheaper (deathrain is FAR easier to stick the mines with though, so...).

I'm thinking Proximity Mines might be a good choice for cleaning up a ship damaged from an alpha strike, but not destroyed.  

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3 hours ago, DodgingArcs said:

Absolutely. 

I get the concept but Cruise Missiles aren't always going to work on the first pass. 

Vader is heads and shoulders above everyone else in terms of getting them off with 5 dice because he has a boost to change angle or get range on a long approach, assuming he got the TL earlier. Vader also has 2 actions which gives him the opportunity to have TL and Focus. 

But it's so much work for 1 shot compared to Fenn who takes these shots all the time. 

It definitely adds some teeth to Vader and makes approaching him tricky, which in turn allows Vader to flank. All of these things are good. But not if you take Engine off Vader for Chips like Vader, QD, Quizzy list does. 

I think the idea is fun, and I definitely think having alpha strike potential in an Imperial list is a good idea atm, but I'm not sure it should be your only idea. 

I think cruise missiles is a nice buff for Vader, who quite often has a free mod slot for gc and wasn't seeing much play otherwise.

Other than that i'm not digging this high ps alpha strike list too much - VI inqui is weaker than PTL inqui and quickdraw prefers lwf to gc for survivability. And you're giving all that up for a one trick pony which can be countered by lists that are currently in the meta. Not saying its a bad list, i'm just not a fan.

What i do like is that these alpha strikes can melt Dengar in one round - he deserves it ;)

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15 hours ago, phild0 said:

Also, TL Ordnance bypasses Biggs. Id knock out one of the support. Maybe even Jess, as she is the real damage in the list.

 

17 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes that's an option. So if Jess has selflessness:

12 damage on 6 hull

-1 reinforce evade

-0-6 green dice

-0-3 for draw their fire

-1 and discard integrated astromech

thats anything from 10 to 1 damage. But the chances to survive are still quite high.

But at least not guaranteed anymore.

 

(for completion: Lowhhrick with selflessness is the one mentioned above)

so Jess+Selflessness means she can die to an alphastrike. Maybe it's the right call against other lists, but clearly not against ImpAlphas

 

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5 hours ago, Celez said:

I think cruise missiles is a nice buff for Vader, who quite often has a free mod slot for gc and wasn't seeing much play otherwise.

Other than that i'm not digging this high ps alpha strike list too much - VI inqui is weaker than PTL inqui and quickdraw prefers lwf to gc for survivability. And you're giving all that up for a one trick pony which can be countered by lists that are currently in the meta. Not saying its a bad list, i'm just not a fan.

What i do like is that these alpha strikes can melt Dengar in one round - he deserves it ;)

 

Taking Engine off Vader for GCs is just a bad idea IMO. I've flown Vader a lot competively. He is a monster. He pretty much is only afraid of multiple, and I say multiple, TLTs. But the minute you turn him into a one trick pony with Cruise and GC you start forgoing his power. 

The thing is you shouldn't need GC. You should have Target Lock and Focus (maybe Palp). If you don't it's probably not worth firing them. 

But Vader is still a pure Arc Dodger and sometimes trying to fire them on the opening engagement will just weaken your approach.  Personally I think and list with Vader is going to need some other styles of ship to create more problems for your opponent. 

As has been discussed, the Cruise Missile makes you predictable. You need yo use that to your advantage so that you are not predictable. Threaten the Cruise but move in ways that give you an advantage, use ships that can take advantage of people biting on the Cruise Missile carriers predictable move. 

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