Does this game have a core mechanic problem?

[ozmodon 535]

56 minutes ago, KrisWall said:

I own everything, but will have nobody to play with unless product shortages are resolved as it's challenging to get new players to buy into the game when that involves spending hundreds on ebay.

We don't have any shortages where  in at.  We have about 15 players and of those around 6 that are available any time to play. It a new game and will continue to grow. I'm sure a lot of people will leave because of the action cheating ,maybe even myself. There  will be 3 new players for every 1 that quits. Talking about shortages just makes people loose  interest. They get to that part and go, Oh no another sky is falling guy. 

[KrisWall 966]

12 minutes ago, ozmodon said:

We don't have any shortages where  in at.  We have about 15 players and of those around 6 that are available any time to play. It a new game and will continue to grow. I'm sure a lot of people will leave because of the action cheating ,maybe even myself. There  will be 3 new players for every 1 that quits. Talking about shortages just makes people loose  interest. They get to that part and go, Oh no another sky is falling guy. 

I'm happy for you that your area doesn't have shortages.  Mine does.  Most stores simply don't have product.  When they do get product, it sells out typically within hours.  It's reasonable to talk about shortages when there are legitimate shortages.

[Buhallin 4,563]

3 hours ago, KrisWall said:

Even adding a penalty via extra cards is a crap shoot because I'd need to draw that card and play it.  By that time, I may very well have lost. 

Exactly.  Silver bullets never work well to begin with, but they're almost completely ineffective against speed.  It's why speed is such a dangerous thing in a game like this, and why games are almost impossible to slow down once they've accelerated.  It's especially bad in Destiny because some of the worst speed cards are characters, and will start the game in play.  Anything that requires you to draw into a counter is going to be a band-aid at best.

It's also going to be very difficult to actually create a counter.  "Something that gives you a benefit when your opponent takes an extra action" only solves half the problem.  Sure, it hits Rey and Force Speed, but it does nothing about Maz or Fast Hands or FN.

[Mep 2,291]

@Buhallin You shouldn't buy any EaW then. I will personally only be buying a few singles that look interesting to me. I don't mind the fast pace game too much personally. This game is more about dice rolls and card draw than about good game play. Random chance games have their place and this is one of them. People wanting a different experience should look else where.

[Buhallin 4,563]

2 hours ago, Mep said:

@Buhallin You shouldn't buy any EaW then. I will personally only be buying a few singles that look interesting to me. I don't mind the fast pace game too much personally. This game is more about dice rolls and card draw than about good game play. Random chance games have their place and this is one of them. People wanting a different experience should look else where.

You're probably right, and today's preview hasn't encouraged me.  The sad thing was they accidentally created a game that even though it had dice, was more about the play.  Alternating activations and the chance to manipulate dice both yours and an opponent's, made for a game which used dice but was rarely defined by them.  I'm really starting to think that Awakenings was a fluke.

[Kdubb 6,642]

I have similar complaints. I went to a tournament with my deck from my 2 boxes of spirit of rebellion and I just got crushed to the point of considering selling my collection. I still am strongly considering it.

 

But If FFG can introduce a creative drafting format, I am all in on this game. For players who don't want to spend crazy amounts for just a couple competitive decks, draft is a really intriguing way to give those players a cheaper way to play.

[RJM 129]

4 hours ago, Kdubb said:

I have similar complaints. I went to a tournament with my deck from my 2 boxes of spirit of rebellion and I just got crushed to the point of considering selling my collection. I still am strongly considering it.

 

Look, no offense intended, but it's these types of anecdotes that I can't help but roll my eyes at.

That's not a scenario that will ever be exclusive to Star Wars Destiny.  That's the nature of a collectible game.

If I was to buy two boxes worth of just the latest Magic the Gathering set and go to a tournament with a deck i put together from those random cards alone, it would also lose a lot.

It's a reality that might not be to everyone's taste, but it's not explicitly a game design failure.

[Amanal 2,557]

I play to win. However, I don't have to win to play.

[Kdubb 6,642]

4 hours ago, RJM said:

 

Look, no offense intended, but it's these types of anecdotes that I can't help but roll my eyes at.

That's not a scenario that will ever be exclusive to Star Wars Destiny.  That's the nature of a collectible game.

If I was to buy two boxes worth of just the latest Magic the Gathering set and go to a tournament with a deck i put together from those random cards alone, it would also lose a lot.

It's a reality that might not be to everyone's taste, but it's not explicitly a game design failure.

Which is why I gave an example of what could be a way to keep me interested in the game after I said that. Coming from xwing, where that sort of purchase would very well be enough for me to feel competitive, you can't blame me for at least giving it a try in another game produced by FFG.

[Vitalis 1,012]

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

  If we look at the current meta, we see that you either need an extremely fast aggro deck OR a deck that can control an extremely fast aggro deck if you want to win.  I'm speaking in general terms here, so I freely admit that there are other decks that are viable.  In general though, it's fast aggro or control+slow aggro. 

You do realize its true for every CCG, even the Mighty MTG? And got thank you there are no combo decks, cause that are just cancer to any CCG (Poe/Maz is somehow aggro/combo and look at all that hate...).

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

 It's rare to see a competitive environment game go to time or to see a loss from decking. 

Than you play with some boring people. In our group at least one person have mill deck at each event. And they win with those. Consistently.

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

CORE ISSUE #1 - Games are over too fast and the majority of cards in the current card pool aren't viable for competitive play.

I prefer seeing the game is going south from turn one than to be at the brink of winning only to loose by a combo that was totally unavoidable and its only win condition was to stall the game long enough (hello MtG again). The game is fast, but it can be slow. Quireys are slow. FNs also like to roll and roll and roll after claim. It is slight exggaration IMO. And in terms of viability - its also better than most competition. There are almost no "omg who the hell designed that card" scenarios.

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

CORE ISSUE #2 - There is a massive product shortage.

And how is that core mechanic issue?? Not to mention it is not objective and location dependent. I NEVER had a single shortage longer than "hey i ran out, already ordered new boxes they are shipped tomorrow" stuff at our store.... blame the distributor not the game.

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

Given the massive product shortage, it's very hard for new players to get into this game at this point.  Out local community isn't seeing any new blood.  If a player is able to get a starter set and handful of packs, they build a deck, show up at the next event and get utterly crushed...  never to be seen again.  Store events have almost no room for casual play and the lack of product means you can't support both a competitive environment (where players tend to buy enough product for a full play set) and casual play (where players tend to buy a couple of packs at a time, here and there). 

Tell that to a guy who is trying to build ex. MtG legacy or even Modern deck. That is hard entry point like few k$ entry point.... 
Again blame the distribution not the game. Every CCG has rather high entry point by definition. Either you are sucked and try to be competetive or you bail. 

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

We're starting to think that this game isn't long term viable.  The only fix we can think of is something like 60 cards decks and 50-60 points worth of characters.  That would slow the games down and 'unfocus' the decks, but would make the product shortages even more of an issue.  We're currently debating whether or not we want to buy any Empire at War.

Then don't buy simple. If the game has such product shortages as some of you claims it means it sells like crazy = generates lots of $$$ = gonna be supported and developed. Come you behave like spoiled kids now: "oh they don't want to sell us stuff" come on, you really think they DONT WANT to sell you that stuff? Its you giving them $$$ after all...

And god no 60 cards decks. Most new CCG go away from 60 card decks in favour of 30 ones. Its light and refreshing. Want to prolong the game, build a deck around it. And YES it can be done.

On 19.07.2017 at 10:38 PM, KrisWall said:

Thoughts?  Does this game have a real future or is it always going to be fast damage where games are effectively won by round two or three?  New players coming in today won't have access to Awakenings or Spirit of Rebellion in any meaningful way, so the only real way to win is to have bought (impossible for new players) in early or spend $$$$$ on expensive, out of print cards.

Just look at new spoilers from EaW...it already looks like the game slowing down. 
Yes they wont have access to both AW and SoR outside of aftermarket. And? They are gonna be rotated some time anyway. There are really only few AW and SoR cards that are "need to have" in some decks. Even buing 2xPoes or 2xPalps its not gonna ruin anyone wallet on aftermarket. 

 

 

[KrisWall 966]

1 hour ago, Vitalis said:

You do realize its true for every CCG, even the Mighty MTG? And got thank you there are no combo decks, cause that are just cancer to any CCG (Poe/Maz is somehow aggro/combo and look at all that hate...).

Than you play with some boring people. In our group at least one person have mill deck at each event. And they win with those. Consistently.

I prefer seeing the game is going south from turn one than to be at the brink of winning only to loose by a combo that was totally unavoidable and its only win condition was to stall the game long enough (hello MtG again). The game is fast, but it can be slow. Quireys are slow. FNs also like to roll and roll and roll after claim. It is slight exggaration IMO. And in terms of viability - its also better than most competition. There are almost no "omg who the hell designed that card" scenarios.

And how is that core mechanic issue?? Not to mention it is not objective and location dependent. I NEVER had a single shortage longer than "hey i ran out, already ordered new boxes they are shipped tomorrow" stuff at our store.... blame the distributor not the game.

Tell that to a guy who is trying to build ex. MtG legacy or even Modern deck. That is hard entry point like few k$ entry point.... 
Again blame the distribution not the game. Every CCG has rather high entry point by definition. Either you are sucked and try to be competetive or you bail. 

Then don't buy simple. If the game has such product shortages as some of you claims it means it sells like crazy = generates lots of $$$ = gonna be supported and developed. Come you behave like spoiled kids now: "oh they don't want to sell us stuff" come on, you really think they DONT WANT to sell you that stuff? Its you giving them $$$ after all...

And god no 60 cards decks. Most new CCG go away from 60 card decks in favour of 30 ones. Its light and refreshing. Want to prolong the game, build a deck around it. And YES it can be done.

Just look at new spoilers from EaW...it already looks like the game slowing down. 
Yes they wont have access to both AW and SoR outside of aftermarket. And? They are gonna be rotated some time anyway. There are really only few AW and SoR cards that are "need to have" in some decks. Even buing 2xPoes or 2xPalps its not gonna ruin anyone wallet on aftermarket. 

 

 

Seriously man...  no need to be so antagonistic.  If you don't agree with me, say so, but don't attack me and the people I play with.  "you play with some boring people"  "you behave like spoiled kids"

Also, your anecdote of being able to constantly get product whenever you want it doesn't line up with the overwhelming opposing anecdotes of stores not being able to get product.  FFG has acknowledged that they haven't been able to meet the demand.  I simply don't believe you that your store was able to get weekly shipments of Destiny.  Every store in my neck of the woods (a lot of stores) had serious issues with getting product in.  When they did, it usually sold out within hours, not days or weeks.  Most of us had to pre-order one box at each of multiple stores to get what we have.  Most stores never actually had more than 1 or 2 boxes on the shelf for general sale.

I'm honestly not sure why you're fixated on this being a distributor problem.  FFG didn't make enough.  Blaming the distributor seems crazy when FFG is the one controlling the supply.

[Handler 162]

If new players with small collections are being curbstomped by vets with tier 1 decks in casual play, perhaps the issue is with the community, not the game mechanics

[Buhallin 4,563]

2 hours ago, Handler said:

If new players with small collections are being curbstomped by vets with tier 1 decks in casual play, perhaps the issue is with the community, not the game mechanics

[romo 10]

Former player just browsing the forums to see how Destiny was going...I sold out during Awakenings.  My impression initially was that the game was too invested in action economy and it doesn't sound like that has changed with the second set.  The basic mechanics of the game have potential for really deep tactical gameplay with the back and forth trading of actions between players but too many cards eliminate that and it really sours competitive play IMO.  It doesn't come as a surprise to me since the action economy decks (fast advance) dominated Netrunner for far too long under Lukas' reign as lead designer.  Seems like its his signature with this game as well.  I really liked Destiny and Star Wars but even if availability hadn't been such a damper on play in my area I doubt I would have stuck with it because of these kinds of design choices.

[Amanal 2,557]

Action cheating is something that is required to ensure that control decks don't shut down their opponents. There is no delight to be found when your opponent plays a fast hands on his 3 damage to snake it past you, why is this emotionally different as to have 2-3 re-rolls and then have a Scramble played on you or a Doubt on the one dice that had a ranged attack? The trick is, ensuring the two aspects are as close to balanced.

[Alphastealer 42]

Action cheating can be easily curbed. You just need to introduce cards like:

Dampening Field - Red - Neutral - - Support - Resource cost 3

Card effect: Whenever an opponent performs more than one action in a sequence, gain one resources for each action performed beyond the first.

Or 

Jedi Reflexes - Blue - Hero - Support - Cost 2

Once per turn, exhaust this card this card to restrict your opponent to one action per sequence.

[Buhallin 4,563]

11 hours ago, Amanal said:

Action cheating is something that is required to ensure that control decks don't shut down their opponents. There is no delight to be found when your opponent plays a fast hands on his 3 damage to snake it past you, why is this emotionally different as to have 2-3 re-rolls and then have a Scramble played on you or a Doubt on the one dice that had a ranged attack? The trick is, ensuring the two aspects are as close to balanced.

I think this fundamentally misunderstands how control works in Destiny.

In many games, control means I cost you resources - you play a card, I Counterspell it, and that card is gone.  Control in Destiny is always temporary, or unreliable.  Sure, it sucks losing that good die roll, but how often can that happen?  Even dedicated control decks can't include more than about 12 removal cards.  Next turn those dice are going to be right back where they started, and it's just delayed things.

But I also think your example is flawed.  One is non-interactive - your roll a die, and resolve it without any opportunity for me to do anything.  There's no game there, and no real decision on either player's part.  The other is entirely interactive - you balance the cost/risk/reward of burning a card to reroll.  You have to evaluate my hand, my resources, what cards you've seen me play, what cards you know I have available.  Do you give up a die for a disrupt to remove my last resource and prevent me playing removal before you reroll?  When do I drop that Scramble?  Will you be content with that 2 damage on Vader, or reroll it?  Do I risk giving you that 3?

One is a good game; the other...  well.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Buhallin

[Ezzet 2]

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

I think this fundamentally misunderstands how control works in Destiny.

In many games, control means I cost you resources - you play a card, I Counterspell it, and that card is gone.  Control in Destiny is always temporary, or unreliable.  Sure, it sucks losing that good die roll, but how often can that happen?  Even dedicated control decks can't include more than about 12 removal cards.  Next turn those dice are going to be right back where they started, and it's just delayed things.

But I also think your example is flawed.  One is non-interactive - your roll a die, and resolve it without any opportunity for me to do anything.  There's no game there, and no real decision on either player's part.  The other is entirely interactive - you balance the cost/risk/reward of burning a card to reroll.  You have to evaluate my hand, my resources, what cards you've seen me play, what cards you know I have available.  Do you give up a die for a disrupt to remove my last resource and prevent me playing removal before you reroll?  When do I drop that Scramble?  Will you be content with that 2 damage on Vader, or reroll it?  Do I risk giving you that 3?

One is a good game; the other...  well.

EXACTLY

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

The problem with the game (or, more specifically, the meta) is that the transition from one set to two sets didn't increase deck variety at the competitive level, it constrained it. Cards and archetypes that were completely viable before have simply been obsoleted by this newer, faster meta, and the response from the devs that everything is 'working as intended' doesn't inspire much confidence that those cards will ever make a comeback. Clearly this isn't an issue in more relaxed environs where house rules and gentlemanly behavior take precedence, but if we're making up our own rules then what the heck do we need FFG for?

Edited July 27, 2017 by WonderWAAAGH

[KryatDragon 347]

I have one last complaint to add to the list... and this is coming from a more fluff perspective.

It bugs the living crap out of me that they specifically designed cards so that ICONIC Star Wars duos cannot be played 'effectively' (ie: both elite).

No Han / Chewie, no Poe / Finn, no Chirrut / Baze, not even a Han / Leia.
(Not bothering with villains, cause they really never duo up... and actually they have like the only semi-iconic duo that you can double elite, Dooku / Ventriss).

I know I'm probably yelling at the wind, but it bugs me. They could have made the dice just a touch less powerful on some of the characters in order to allow the duos.

Not as much as the action cheating... but still.

FFG has me for EaW, and then... if the game is not better, I'm done.

[Stone37 3,353]

3 hours ago, KryatDragon said:

I have one last complaint to add to the list... and this is coming from a more fluff perspective.

It bugs the living crap out of me that they specifically designed cards so that ICONIC Star Wars duos cannot be played 'effectively' (ie: both elite).

No Han / Chewie, no Poe / Finn, no Chirrut / Baze, not even a Han / Leia.
(Not bothering with villains, cause they really never duo up... and actually they have like the only semi-iconic duo that you can double elite, Dooku / Ventriss).

I know I'm probably yelling at the wind, but it bugs me. They could have made the dice just a touch less powerful on some of the characters in order to allow the duos.

Not as much as the action cheating... but still.

FFG has me for EaW, and then... if the game is not better, I'm done.

Right!?!?  Elite Han and Chewie should be a thing... Heck, single Han. Leia, and Luke should be a thing!  This too is my biggest complaint.  My favorite deck right now is eDooku/eVentriss because it is a true pair from Star Wars.

One could argue that the current Leia is the "Hoth" version of our favorite princess.  Luke is obviously the RoTJ version.  "Scoundrel" suggest we already have the Episode IV version of Han.  That being said.  If new versions of Luke and Leia were to come out they could only have a combined cost of 16 to all fit on a Death Star raiding team. I doubt this happens... 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Stone37

[guest77753 3]

Aggro and Speed designs are always the early rabbits in a collectible game's "top design" race. For many, they are the bane of collectible games because there is very little that can be done to hinder them, especially in a game's early stages, with a smaller pool of cards/dice/mechanics available.

Unfortunately for the complainers, they are plainly the most efficient use of game mechanics. And it's an avenue most game designers and playtesters seem to continually be oblivious to.

It's the nature of the beast. We can only hope they get reigned in with future expansions with a stronger meta.

[Chakan99939 48]

On 2017-07-28 at 11:45 AM, guest77753 said:

Aggro and Speed designs are always the early rabbits in a collectible game's "top design" race. For many, they are the bane of collectible games because there is very little that can be done to hinder them, especially in a game's early stages, with a smaller pool of cards/dice/mechanics available.

Unfortunately for the complainers, they are plainly the most efficient use of game mechanics. And it's an avenue most game designers and playtesters seem to continually be oblivious to.

It's the nature of the beast. We can only hope they get reigned in with future expansions with a stronger meta.

True, but at some point, you really don't want the opposite: Control stuff strongest play strategy and preferred game mechanics to developpers.

My best friend uses mostly control decks, and you know, i'd rather play 10 games against Poe/maz or Rey action cheating than his most effecient control decks. Not that I don't win, it's boring to the point of no return. If ever control deck becomes as strong as "Blue counterspell decks in Mactic the gathering (early stage of the game)" My deck and dice will be stored forever. Action cheating is a great strategy, game develloppers just need to be carefull to make people waste some cards in order to do it... (Maz is a perfect example of what NOT TO DO).

 

Chak

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

On 7/22/2017 at 11:32 AM, Kdubb said:

Which is why I gave an example of what could be a way to keep me interested in the game after I said that. Coming from xwing, where that sort of purchase would very well be enough for me to feel competitive, you can't blame me for at least giving it a try in another game produced by FFG.

(Sorry if you no longer want to talk about this, I know your post was several days ago, but I didn't see this the first time I read through the thread.)

I came from X-Wing as well, so I feel your pain. In X-Wing, I think all you need to do is buy a few Jumpmaster 5000 packs now to win a tournament, or the new core set and a couple K-Wings if you're flying Rebels. So a decent fleet costs a couple hundred bucks at most.

However, there's a difference between the X-Wing LCG-type model and the Destiny CCG-type model. You can't just open a hundred bucks worth of Destiny packs and expect to win a tournament. But you can go buy a hundred bucks worth of singles and perhaps win a tournament. For example, if you buy two Kylo starters, 2x Vader (SoR), and a few more cards (Sith Holocron, a few events, Vibroknife), you're looking at close to a tier-1 tournament deck for just about $100, maybe less depending on where you buy from. 

So don't lose heart - this is a different game than X-Wing. If you want a competitive deck, you will have to either buy a lot of packs or be more careful with your singles purchases. But you probably won't have to spend any more money here than in X-Wing.

[LordFajubi 1,308]

To those saying you can't buy 2 boxes of spirit and expect to be competitive and that magic doesn't work this way...

SoR is set TWO, so you can't expect to buy 50% of the available card pool and be competitive? Perspective please people, magic has I don't know how many sets and 10's of thousands of cards. Not a fair comparison in any way. The Xwing guys were fully justified at this point in the game buying 2 boxes of either set and expecting to be at least somewhat competitive. The fact you can't do that speaks volumes about this game. No you shouldn't be able to grab pull a tournament champion but saying 2 boxes is not enough to expect a competitive showing is laughable and very telling of the balance of the game. Last remark I will make on Destiny as I sold my junk months ago and don't regret a thing. Good luck to those who play and to those that want out abandon ship if it's not for you.

Edited July 31, 2017 by LordFajubi