After, When, If - timing of effects

[ParinorB 30]

Hey,

I just gave the FAQ a quick read and got confused about card timing. Here we have two different paragraphs in the FAQ:

Quote

 

1.4) Nested Sequences
Each time a triggering condition occurs, the following sequence is followed: (1) execute “when...” effects that interrupt that triggering condition, (2) resolve the triggering condition, and then, (3) execute “after...” effects in response to that triggering condition.

(2.2) Timing of “At...” or “If...” abilities
Some abilities have triggering conditions that use the words “at” or “if” instead of specifying “when” or “after,” such as “at the end of the round,” or “if the Ghoul Priest is defeated.” These abilities trigger in between any “when...” abilities and any “after...” abilities with the same triggering condition.

 

O.K - so it seems the order is 1) When, 2) triggering condition, 3) After. What is the timing of the 'if'? It has to be between when and after so it can come either between 1 and 2 or between 2 and 3. Maybe this is never an issue but what would the order be here?

Now, when skill tests are concerned it gets a bit more confusing to me. The ruling seems clear but it is not consistent with above sequence.

Quote

 

(1.7) Skill Test Results and Advanced Timing
During Step 7 of Skill Test Timing (“Apply skill test results”), all of the effects of the successful skill test are determined and resolved, one at a time. This includes the effects of the test itself (such as the clue discovered while investigating, or the damage dealt during an attack), as well as any “If this test is successful...” effects from card abilities or skill cards committed to the test.

Reaction or Forced abilities with a triggering condition dependent upon the skill test being successful or unsuccessful (such as “After you successfully investigate,” or “After you fail a skill test by 2 or more”) do not trigger at this time. These abilities are triggered during Step 6, “Determine success/failure of skill test.”

 

So during a skill test it seems the order is: 1) When, 2) After, 3) Effects of the successful skill test including "if".

Two notes on this:

First, the order is now different to the ruling in paragraph 1.4 (quoted above). This is inconsistent and therefore somewhat confusing.

Second, the order in which I resolve the effects of the successful test is not clear to me. What does "one at a time" mean? Take a successful investigation test using burglary in which I used perception. Do I first draw a card or do I first get the resources? This may be relevant if I draw that weakness that discards all the resources (Paranoia).

Does anyone know more and can give a clear sequence that one can follow?

[Slothgodfather 270]

nvm.  That last part of the FAQ really messes it up with the "as well as any "if..." are triggered during Step 7.

 

As for the order - the "when..." all go, then "if...", then "after" (except on skill tests, where it is "when/after/if", ugh...).  If you have multiple effects in one of those, you get to determine the order.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Slothgodfather

[ParinorB 30]

Thanks for the note - that makes sense and that clears some confusion. The one thing that remains very non-intuitive to me is that "If this test is successful..." abilities from cards (e.g. perception) trigger during step 7 while "After you successfully..." from reaction or forced abilities trigger in step 6 (e.g. Milan). But it is what it is

Thanks

[Slothgodfather 270]

I went ahead and sent in a rule question for this.  

[ParinorB 30]

Cool.  Let me know how it goes.

[Slothgodfather 270]

Still no reply yet.  Maybe you should ask.

[ParinorB 30]

Hmm - well, I am not sure I will have more luck than you. I certainly do not have any personal link with Matt. I always thought that there a few select people that are supposed to be the ones gathering rules questions and asking the designers directly? Actually I had thought you were one of them when you just sent the question.

 

[Slothgodfather 270]

Ah, lol, not at all.   There is a very overlooked and slightly hidden "Rules Request" forum that you can find through the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page.  I'm betting my original question just got overlooked, they are generally really good at responding.

 

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/

Click Rules Question then find the link to the Rules Question Form.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Slothgodfather

[BD Flory 695]

What's your actual question? The timing sequence is fairly well understood, so I can probably clear up the confusion -- I'm just not actually sure what it is!

 

 

[Slothgodfather 270]

The question is, if you look at 1.4 and 2.2, you see that "if" abilities are triggered after "when" abilities, but before "after" abilities.  Makes sense.  So the order of resolution is "when, if, after".

If you look at 1.7, it states that "if" abilities are triggered after the "when" and "after" abilities.   So the order for resolution of skill checks is "when, after, if".

 

Why is there a difference? and isn't pretty much everything a skill check - so when is the first order of resolution even used?

[BD Flory 695]

You're conflating two separate triggering conditions, which is the source of your confusion.

The first triggering condition is determing success, which is when you trigger effects like "when you fail a skill test" or "after you succeed by 2." This is all triggering when or after ST.6 happens.

Applying the results of the test -- the "if this test is successful" stuff -- is a distinct timing trigger with its own "when" and "after" sequence. This is ST.7. For something to trigger here, it would be triggering on the result of the test, not determining success or failure. So, for example, "when you discover a clue," or "after you deal damage to an enemy."

So, overall, it looks like this:

ST.6 Determine Success

  - "when" you succeed/fail, successfully x, or similar

   - you formally succeed or fail, but don't yet apply results.

   - "after" you succeed/fail, successfully x, or similar

ST.7 Apply Results

   - "when" you discover a clue on an investigate, "when" you deal damage, "when" you draw cards, and similar effects.

   - "if successful" effects applied, per st.7

   - "after" you discover a clue on an investigate, "after" you deal damage, "after" you draw cards, and similar effects.

 

Does that clarify the process?

[ParinorB 30]

Hey BD Flory,

I am really sorry about the late reply - thanks for taking the time to clarify. That is indeed what the rules seem to imply and helps to clarify. Thanks!!

I guess, I am still unsure about three points:

• How can I intuitively know what triggers in step 6 and what triggers in step 7? To me, there is little difference in the wording of "If this test is successful...” and “After you successfully investigate" => O.K. the answer is going to be "reaction or forced abilities" come in step 6. So can I go with the rule, whenever there is  a keyword "reaction" (or the corresponding arrow), or  the keyword "forced" it triggers in step 6 and in all other cases it triggers in step 7?
• I believe, the FAQ (or the normal When - if - after" rule) doesn't clarify the order between " If" and the application of the result. Both are said to trigger between When and after but the order is not clear. Let's say, I played a perception while investigating. Do I first draw a card or do I first discover the clue
• As a variant of the above - what comes first when successfully performing an investigate test with burglary and a perception: drawing a card or getting resources ? Burglary reads "If you succeed [...]"

Thanks and sorry again for the long silence

[BD Flory 695]

I hesitate to say, "yes, in all cases, triggered abilities on variations on success and failure resolve in ST.6, while constant abilities referring to success and failure resolve in ST.7," but I can't think of any exceptions off hand. It's probably a good rule of thumb.

If you have multiple "if you succeed" effects, they resolve in an order of your choice, per the RRG description of ST.7. So in both of your examples, you would choose the order. Note that Burglary is not a react trigger, but an activate ability that creates a lasting effect that gives you resources if you succeed instead of clues, similar to the way weapons grant bonus damage if you succeed.

Happy to help!

 

[ParinorB 30]

O.K. cool -

so you replied to what happened with two "if you succeed effects". So just to make sure: What about one "if you succeed" effect and one result from a successful skill test (for example monster gets killed, clue gained etc.), I can choose the order here as well? For example when I draw the card and gain the clue?

[BD Flory 695]

1 hour ago, ParinorB said:

O.K. cool -

so you replied to what happened with two "if you succeed effects". So just to make sure: What about one "if you succeed" effect and one result from a successful skill test (for example monster gets killed, clue gained etc.), I can choose the order here as well? For example when I draw the card and gain the clue?

If you check the rules reference describing those skill checks - the basic skill test actions you can always take - you'll see they also phrase their results as "if you succeed," so the timing on the basic investigate, fight, and evade actions is the same as "if this test is successful" constant abilities (such as on skill cards).

So yes, you choose the order of resolution.

 

[ParinorB 30]

O.K. I see! Thanks!