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Skirmish Meta Balance Discussion (Post Droid-Reinforcement, Pre HotE)

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56 minutes ago, Fightwookies said:

That being bad for the state of the game is an opinion that I just completely do not understand. Hera is great and fun.

I would argue that the flexibility to bring good and fun characters to a variety of lineups is good for the state of the game. 

Is having that flexibility worth it if it means no one would ever really need to "pick" a faction?  I mean, why would one consider playing Rebels when you can just cherry pick some of their best units to plug holes in a already good merc list.

Edited by miguelj

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18 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Is having that flexibility worth it if it means no one would ever really need to "pick" a faction?  I mean, why would one consider playing Rebels when you can just cherry pick some of their best units to plug holes in a already good merc list.

I'd actually like to see more choice offered by temporary alliance. Being able to fit one or two units in another faction is great! It should make for diverse and creative list building. The reason we don't see much variety is that A) focus is very powerful and B) with the exception of 3PO and Gideon, the older Rebel figures are kind of bad. I believe with cards like Beast Tamer, Driven by Hatred, and Focused on the Kill, IA can still ensure a faction's most powerful figures remain at their best in their own faction. The rumored Han Solo + Chewie upgrades'll make sure they remain Rebel only.

Edited by mellowthello

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16 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Is having that flexibility worth it if it means no one would ever really need to "pick" a faction?  I mean, why would one consider playing Rebels when you can just cherry pick some of their best units to plug holes in a already good merc list.

Hopefully when Rebels get enough solid units that you can't bring them all over with Temp Alliance. TBH I think that's already the case. There's always going to be units cherry picked to swing over to Mercs because rebels support squad is amazing. It's not like Rebels can't put together a couple competitive lists on their own right now though. 

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51 minutes ago, miguelj said:

Is having that flexibility worth it if it means no one would ever really need to "pick" a faction?  I mean, why would one consider playing Rebels when you can just cherry pick some of their best units to plug holes in a already good merc list.

You can take 2 rebel figures with temp alliance. Two. That's a far cry from not picking a faction. 

Hera seems to be deliberately designed to try to reduce the dependency of Mercs using the RCP and I still argue that's a good thing. 

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6 hours ago, wannabepudge said:

I'd be extremely bummed if Temporary Alliance gets nerfed. Yes it is usually used for Gideon and 3PO, but who cares. Everyone is doing it so it all evens out. That said, a nerf could mean no longer being able to bring other Rebel figures and kill some of the potential variance. 

Well, that is why I think that Mercenary version of Temporary Alliance should allow only inclusion of non-unique units. Then you will not get Gideon/Hera. 3PO could be still get via eJawa

Edited by Jarema

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6 hours ago, wannabepudge said:

I'd be extremely bummed if Temporary Alliance gets nerfed. Yes it is usually used for Gideon and 3PO, but who cares. Everyone is doing it so it all evens out. That said, a nerf could mean no longer being able to bring other Rebel figures and kill some of the potential variance. 

"Everyone is doing it" has always been and always will be a terrible argument, but I understand the sentiment. 

I agree that nerfing temp alliance would be a mistake, and I don't think it's going to happen. The game is best served by crating more options rather than limiting them. More options>>>>Less options. 

I think this is the game designer's thoughts also. Keep pumping out fun unique characters like Hera and Chopper, and the meta will slowly shift away from Gideon and 3PO being auto included simply because there are other viable options. 

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1 hour ago, MadFuhrer said:

Make gideon and 3po only able to focus rebel units. boom, done.

Heck yeah, worded like Jabba this is the simplest way to keep the care package in rebel squads but still allow for say, Hera and Gideon to be splashed together.  I like it!

Edited by yourmomlies
gave a bad example.

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While I think that would address the focus power swing, I'm of the mind that adding new / alternative toys is more elegant than taking away the old ones. That and the value of eJawa shrinks a fair bit, both in terms of what you can fit in a list at 2 points and what droid options are now worth taking.

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In a game where nothing ever rotates out, adding new options is NOT more elegant than taking away old ones. It leads to power creep, hate-cards (or figures) and/or staleness. If there were different formats for IA skirmish, then FFG could address the issues in a rotating format with a combination of new options and simply waiting for the problematic stuff to rotate out.

Temporary Alliance was a fine idea while the game was still fresh and there weren't that many options available. You basically needed it to have any variance with only the base game and a few expansions. Scum now has more than enough options available. If you want to be competitive, you're playing with 33-34 points + the RCP. This means that Temporary Alliance actually LIMITS your options.

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7 hours ago, burek277 said:

In a game where nothing ever rotates out, adding new options is NOT more elegant than taking away old ones. ... Scum now has more than enough options available. If you want to be competitive, you're playing with 33-34 points + the RCP. This means that Temporary Alliance actually LIMITS your options.

If the status quo was kept the same, I would agree. But adding new options that make the old options less desirable (auto focus, token generation) ensures players can still have the option of 3PO + Gideon while also making them less necessary or even undesirable. If you're running both BT and IG-88, for example, a rebel care package is too much to invest for focus you don't need.

Edited by mellowthello

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17 hours ago, yourmomlies said:

Heck yeah, worded like Jabba this is the simplest way to keep the care package in rebel squads but still allow for say, Hera and Gideon to be splashed together.  I like it!

Not sure you'd take Gideon at all if he could only focus Rebel figures; you would probably take something like Hera and Rangers (more hunter command card targets).

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7 minutes ago, Stompburger said:

Not sure you'd take Gideon at all if he could only focus Rebel figures; you would probably take something like Hera and Rangers (more hunter command card targets).

Agreed.  I used Hera & Gideon as the example because of the mobility they add to the squad as a tandem and Gideon could still focus Hera (it might not have been the best example, but it was better than my original).  IF RCP was limited to focusing rebel figures, it would be a game changer that would shake up Scum lists.  Falling back to Jabba for those points also means dropping an activation.

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Some great discussion here. I'm not sure if I want to go all in on the Take Initiative debate, but it seems to be a nice counter to being Devious Schemed.

Right now, I am really really enjoying this game. I am a relatively new player, having only really started playing Skirmish with the release of Jabbas Realm. The short of it is for me, I am having a lot of fun with this game. I peeked in at 8th ed for WH40k and in the end, said, nevermind, I am having a blast with IA. There is a great community and a lot of things to try out. (As others have already said). I'll need to play a few games of Nal Hutta to form an opinion, so no comments yet there.

Here's some things I would like to see with HotE or future waves. This may be a bit Imperial biased.

  • Better defense cards, especially for Brawlers, Troopers, Spies and anyone else not a hunter or smuggler. Something along the lines of "Run for Cover" would be swell. 

Run for Cover

  • "Brace for Impact" is alright, just a little unreliable at times. Really, I would prefer some defense cards with a little more reliability. When your dice go cold, it stings all the more when you need to rely on them too with your command cards. 

Brace for Impact

  • A way for Imperials to get more reliable focus. "Inspiring Speech" just doesn't cut it. (Prefer it not to be answered with Temp Alliance :P) Maybe this new "Power Token" mechanic may be the answer? I'm anxious to see it in action.
  • I like the options to re-draw cards. I'd like to see that expanded on, especially for Imperials who lack an inherent way to control terminals or draw more cards. Maybe being card starved is the price of Zillo? I dunno, brainstorming here.
  • In principle, I think I agree with @mellowthello and would like to see more options. Specifically counters to things. Disorient is an interesting card too. Special actions that remove beneficial conditions would be a possible way to deal with focus.

Either way, a great thread!  A lot to mull over

 

 

Edited by Pintofstout
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Re: BT-1 and several comments about his lackluster performance...
On 7/18/2017 at 3:40 PM, nickv2002 said:

... 1) His surges aren't so great (they're good but no +2 Damage) and with 4 die you can over-surge, 2) 4-die attacks are overkill vs smaller or nearly dead figures, 3) he's a bit of a glass cannon who can (and should) be killed quickly by your opponent.

I actually am the kind of person who says "I told ya so," so... ^_^

On 3/26/2017 at 0:05 AM, thereisnotry said:

Let me go on record:

I hereby predict that BT-1--who has received about as many "borken!!1!!" cries as the Grand Inquisitor did--will be used in high level competition about as often as the Grand Inquisitor has been...ie, not much at all.

We will have to see what happens, but I expect that this is what we'll find, after the wave hits and dust clears.

 

 

On a serious point, though,  I agree with this 100% as the answer to the Temporary Alliance topic:

On 7/19/2017 at 4:44 PM, MadFuhrer said:

Make gideon and 3po only able to focus rebel units. boom, done.

If someone wants to bring eRangers or Jedi Luke into a Merc squad, then that's fine with me.  It's the cheap and ubiquitous Focus that's the problem.

Edited by thereisnotry

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10 minutes ago, thereisnotry said:
Re: BT-1 and several comments about his lackluster performance...

I actually am the kind of person who says "I told ya so," so... ^_^

 

 

On a serious point, though,  I agree with this 100% as the answer to the Temporary Alliance topic:

If someone wants to bring eRangers or Jedi Luke into a Merc squad, then that's fine with me.  It's the cheap and ubiquitous Focus that's the problem.

I think another problem with BT-1 is that he doesn't really fit anywhere right now. If you are running Mercs then there are other good options for similarly priced hunters(Vinto, Onar, eQuays) so there isn't much incentive to bring in BT-1 even if he is comparable and easy to add with an eJawa(not saying he is or isn't) Droids don't really have strong enough cards yet for him that you would want him in a droid list over a hunter list. 

 

And then trying him in Imperials is fine except again you don't really have anything he meshes with. He could be part of an imperial hunter squad utilized the strong hunter command cards except there isn't any other good imperial hunters to fit him in with. 

 

I don't think he is a bad figure by any means and I've defintely seen him shine in some circumstances. I just think he needs to find a home in some lists that aren't viable yet. 

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On 7/19/2017 at 3:44 PM, MadFuhrer said:

Make gideon and 3po only able to focus rebel units. boom, done.

A bigger issue than focus imo is the mercs ability to mill through the command deck. Jabba/Black Market's ability to get multiple command cards per round is powerful. If you control one terminal, by the end of round 2 you've been able to grab 11 command cards.

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