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Truckerpunk

Your Desired Future Expansions (Lets be positive on the future of Descent)

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On 9/8/2017 at 11:17 AM, jopan said:

Well the idea of a expansion in the islands of Torue Albes is not bad.
It doesnt have to be the same as SoB. It can take some ideas from there.

The ideas that people should take away is that an expansion in the islands of Torue Albes is a bad idea because:

1. Porting a large, complex, unweildy game like Descent into a different game is extremely hard to do. It didn't work last time and the game's larger now.

2. Dungeon crawling and pirates are 2 significantly different genres. And the more you believe Reedmooley, the more this part should worry you. FFG won't manage to sell to the dungeon crawl fans who aren't into pirate games nor will they sell to pirate fans who aren't into dungeon crawls.

Regardless of which of these issues you think was the larger culprit in the expansions downfall, the fact remains that it's still sitting on store shelves. A fact that should really concern anyone who thinks that Descent's at a point in it's lifespan where it wouldn't survive a flop...

 

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46 minutes ago, Reedmooley said:

It just seems you cannot accept any other opinion that is different from your own. EOT for me.

You're dismissing a larger, less biased set of data in favor of a smaller more biased set of data, I'm doing the opposite.  We've both recognized that's the case at this point. Which of these strategies is correct isn't simply a matter of opinion, one strategy is objectively better than the other.

And yes you're completely right that my comment about America has nothing to do with this discussion. However, as an American it has everything to do with why I face palm and worry about the future when I run into a gamer thinking like an antivaxxer.

 

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Ok, I will explain my point. Lets use the biggest resource of clean data I'm aware of-the BGG detailed ratings page. English is not my native language so sorry if I made some misspells. But raw numbers are universal.

If you have any better survey method, fell free to recalculate that if you want. I will be happy to read it.

Sea of blood-is rated 7.4 by BGG community. The number of BGG users that declared owning the game is 2901 people and it was rated 641 times since its implementation into database of BGG.  So thats about 30,5% of owners that took their time and rated the title. Rather small number, isn't it?

Of that 30,5% there when placed into NPS satisfaction rating(1-6 Detractors,7-8-Neutral,9-10 Promoters), we have a 148 Detractors, 344 Neutral and 149 Promoters. So even if we just throw out the neutrals(that is standard of most NPS surveys) you get a tie between the promoters and detractors as set of 23.2 and 23.1 for the group of people who did mind to rate it, NPS is 0,1%, from  30,5 percent of all declared owners in that BGG source. Biggest group, 53,3% reviewers was neutral to positive and gave it 7 or 8 rating.

If you count neutrals+positives you get 76,5% of reviewers neutral to happy with their game.

The highest rated expansion for 1ed. Descent is Road to legend with rating of 8.0, own by 4372 of BGG users, and rated by 2107 of them. Thats 48.1% of owners who gave it a rating.

Of that 2107 we see Detractors:276 Neutrals:1005 Promoters:829. That gives us a score D:13.9  N:47.63 Pro:39.29 in the group 48.1 percent of reviewers who own the game by BGG base. NPS for Road to Legend is 26.21 for the group of . Again 47.6% of reviewers was neutral to positive.

If you count neutrals+positives you get 86,5% of reviewers happy with their game.

In both cases, more than 50% of owners did not even rate the title. Mostly because they just want to play it, or have other fun things to do instead of spending their time on sites such as BGG and do ratings/reviews.  And that was my point when I wrote that I don't always trust in such data.

 

 

P.S. As for pirates theme in fantasy setting. Don't mistake "Pirates of Caribbean" type of Jack Sparrow thing with for example, LOTR Corsairs of Umbar or Greyjoy's House from GOT.  They seem to fit fantasy theme quite well. Almost every big fantasy universe have corsairs/pirates in that kind. Even Conan the Cimmerian dealt with corsairs in some stories.

P.S.2 Antivaxxer plot -man that made my day :D Good one.

 

 

 

 

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Thank you so much for citing data instead of regaling us with an anecdotal personal recollection. That made me happy. I'll certainly agree that the number of ratings you've found exceed the reviews I've read. Which is the worst case scenario for ever trying to put this dungeon crawl on a boat again. Because we're still stuck with the fact that this expansion didn't sell, it did so badly that the first print run is still sitting on warehouse shelves.

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So now that you have hashed that out to death. Is there anything you would suggest for future fun or even a method to change your hashed out Sea expansion talk that would make it work in, say, the app version perhaps? Or is there something else you'd like to see?

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If you both would mind- my desired expansion is mountain/ice themed or desert one:) I stated that out in second post of this thread. I like the Sea of blood-tropical jungle(some of existing map tiles would also work) scenery, but not definitely the "nautical combat" and other mechanics that are indeed clumsy.

I've played SoB, along the others expansions long time ago and enjoyed it- back then. But  II ed. has been more crafted and rid of most I ed. flaws. Shortly after release of SoB whole line was killed by FFG, and no other 1ed. reprint saw a daylight, for any expansion or the core game(as I can tell, maybe there was some printing made, but I don't remember any). I don't think that sole SoB alone was the cause, but the FFG financial trouble, around that time they killed also DUST, Tannhauser and few other product lines. It took them around 3 years to get back into that kind of stuff.  If one was unable to get the core game, then there was no reason to get SoB and RtL expansion- RtL is also the box expansion one can get out new and foiled by today(or was able not so long ago).  And still its best scoring expansion for 1ed Descent by BGG.  Most people tend to go after legacy stuff in release order anyway. 

I've sold my whole first edition of Descent stuff without regret when second edition came out. Especially for poor minis that was just plain ugly. So I don't really focus on that legacy stuff.

In my opinion, they could extract anything that worked out nice(monsters/lore) in Sea of blood/Island of dread for Runebound expansion.  And remade the ships/travels part into something that can be done solely in app- for example hex map, with island system, whirlpools, underwater caves/locations, or shore to be reveled(ever played first parts of Final Fantasy series?- kinda like world map from that stuff) maybe random generated .  Just don't kill mindlessly the themes that have some potential. We all can agree that straight implementation would not work in this case as 1&2 editions are whole different games.

Edited by Reedmooley

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15 hours ago, Truckerpunk said:

So now that you have hashed that out to death. Is there anything you would suggest for future fun...

Isheim.

1. Tomb of Ice is the second highest rated original expansion after Road to Legend. Recognizing the popularity of their most popular expansion they incorporated it's theme into the base game. Tomb of Ice on the other hand, hasn't seen a lot of attention...

2. Cold is the least common trait in the game, it really could use some love and an expansion that featured it heavily could boost sales for a couple of H&M packs and get some really cool monsters more play time.

 

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16 hours ago, Truckerpunk said:

...or even a method to change your hashed out Sea expansion talk that would make it work in, say, the app version perhaps?

Well, the app is a real game changer. They don't have to risk the sort of resources they would with a print run. They could do an expansion moving between the different regions of Terrinoth by boat which would have a lot of synergy with owning the various expansions.

And they could use boat  mechanics along the lines of Starfinder or make it more like the travel step putting it entirely within the app which could elevate the need to make a significant gamble in the gimmick being well received.

So long as it were to come out far enough into Road to Legend that the fan base is sold on this version of decent *shrug* what's the harm.

 

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11 hours ago, Reedmooley said:

If one was unable to get the core game, then there was no reason to get SoB and RtL expansion- RtL is also the box expansion one can get out new and foiled by today(or was able not so long ago).  And still its best scoring expansion for 1ed Descent by BGG.  Most people tend to go after legacy stuff in release order anyway.

Oh you can still get a hold of copies of the core that were never opened, it's just going to cost you between $250 and $350: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1589942736/ref=olp_page_1

And while I don't see any new copies of RtL at the moment, I expect a few to turn up on amazon unopened. You're just talking paying maybe 3 times the price for the original expansions...except SoB of course. That'll cost half it's price or less and not too long ago was selling for $5.

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11 hours ago, Bucho said:

Oh you can still get a hold of copies of the core that were never opened, it's just going to cost you between $250 and $350: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1589942736/ref=olp_page_1

And while I don't see any new copies of RtL at the moment, I expect a few to turn up on amazon unopened. You're just talking paying maybe 3 times the price for the original expansions...except SoB of course. That'll cost half it's price or less and not too long ago was selling for $5.

On ebay I see only one SoB "new and foiled" for 50 Euros in Europe. Pretty much the price I saw that stuff around on local market. But- I'm not paying attention to collecting 1ed offers.

One can get everything. But the question is- why? If you're not a collector, I don't see any proper reason to buy into 1 edition stuff. 

Only aspect I like more than current one is that I was able to put absolutely everything into core game box with DIY insert:) But it was pain to keep it shelved in my flat along with TI and Starcraft . But larger box get you +5 to respect on board game party;)

Now, lets get back to topic:)

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4 hours ago, Reedmooley said:

One can get everything. But the question is- why? If you're not a collector, I don't see any proper reason to buy into 1 edition stuff. 

It's a significantly different and awesome game. To me Descent 1ed has much more of a dungeon crawl, exploring huge sprawling dungeons. 2ed is more of a tactical mini's game where some quests feel more like capture the flag than anything else. I've actually been buying up 1ed recently as I don't get a chance to game with my friend who owned it all anymore.

 

One thing that was cool with the game night kits is they brought back the dungeon sprawl and exploration aspects of the game. I'd love to see a bit more of that same feel in some of the future RtL DLC.

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17 hours ago, Bucho said:

It's a significantly different and awesome game. To me Descent 1ed has much more of a dungeon crawl, exploring huge sprawling dungeons. 2ed is more of a tactical mini's game where some quests feel more like capture the flag than anything else. I've actually been buying up 1ed recently as I don't get a chance to game with my friend who owned it all anymore.

 

One thing that was cool with the game night kits is they brought back the dungeon sprawl and exploration aspects of the game. I'd love to see a bit more of that same feel in some of the future RtL DLC.

Well ok, I do understand that. Good point. I prefer IIed for faster pace actually. For the exploration -I liked first edition of Doom over first Descent for that mechanics etc. Can't wait to check the new one.

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I have to say, FFG business approach of standardizing their products generally works well with their games but not with descent: there are plenty of expansions.. but they offer little to no variety?
Think about it, how do you feel about the terrains? The common answer is "who needs more?" but consider that:

1) There's no snow. No desert, no ships, no horses (pursuit scenarios! can you imagine that?)
2) There's not a single tile that is not a labyrinth. Would you imagine a scenario with an open field, lots of allied units, overlord units using ranged attack. You know, your typical LOTR fort siege

Every expansion added more of the same


The expansions keep adding overlord monsters, plot decks and classes decks, they can be very versatile because they're acquired through the whole campaign. The heroes , got more.. heroes but just at the start of the campaign, yes there are items around but too little, have you imagined that:

3) They could have introduced mounts?
4) They could have introduced DECKS for the heroes that purchase GLOBAL abilities? (one card that can be used once per round by any of the heroes)
5) They could have introduced MERCENARY mechanics ? Like get one of the MANY heroes that sit around unused for a price as an ally in this scenario

Heck I even consider it a shame that no expansion offered something that would flip gameplay

6) Traitor mechanics
7) team mechanics 2v2 2v3

The list can go on, but all of that would be an instant buy from me :D

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8 hours ago, GralQ said:

Heck I even consider it a shame that no expansion offered something that would flip gameplay

Except for the Co-op expansions, Road to Legend and the last physical expansions which have you play as one of the undead...

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16 hours ago, Bucho said:

Except for the Co-op expansions, Road to Legend and the last physical expansions which have you play as one of the undead...

Agh you dont know how much I want to try those - Road to Legend mostly.  But I was specifically talking about traitor and 2v2, 2v3 mechanics. Does the las box do that?

You wont happen to live in Warsaw Poland ? :) For me it's hard to get people into this game

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3 hours ago, GralQ said:

Agh you dont know how much I want to try those - Road to Legend mostly.  But I was specifically talking about traitor and 2v2, 2v3 mechanics. Does the las box do that?

No, it's got a tainted mechanic. But you were also asking about mercenaries, there are allies. Both Serena and Raythen throughout LoR and other allies intermittently in other campaigns.

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4 hours ago, GralQ said:

You wont happen to live in Warsaw Poland ? :) For me it's hard to get people into this game

It's a complex game. One route to find people is to establish a group on a site like meetup or at your local game store. Another option is that it's possible to play games over the internet. One way to do that is play by forum over at boardgamegeek: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/1064199/descent-journeys-dark-second-edition/play-forum

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22 hours ago, Bucho said:

No, it's got a tainted mechanic. But you were also asking about mercenaries, there are allies. Both Serena and Raythen throughout LoR and other allies intermittently in other campaigns.
...
It's a complex game. One route to find people is to establish a group ..

Yes the ally mechanic is nice, I was thinking though about mercenaries: the mercenaries available being the 20+ heroes that you let sitting down unused in the caimpaign

About finding a group so far it has been a nightmare for me: 1 group finished a campaign, full with emotions .. only to tell me they didn't like the game (i think they cant accept a defeat) and 2 other groups that resigned half way.. Right now a new group we're playing but I can feel that they are not well into it we cancelled 2 sessions already.

I need people like you and me - that love this game! specially I bet you accept the losses in this game appreciating how fun it is even though it feels unbalanced. Not everyone does.

Going back to topic maybe they are doing this right by focusing on the App, full co-op can mitigate that last point

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2 hours ago, GralQ said:

Yes the ally mechanic is nice, I was thinking though about mercenaries: the mercenaries available being the 20+ heroes that you let sitting down unused in the caimpaign

About finding a group so far it has been a nightmare for me: 1 group finished a campaign, full with emotions .. only to tell me they didn't like the game (i think they cant accept a defeat) and 2 other groups that resigned half way.. Right now a new group we're playing but I can feel that they are not well into it we cancelled 2 sessions already.

I need people like you and me - that love this game! specially I bet you accept the losses in this game appreciating how fun it is even though it feels unbalanced. Not everyone does.

Going back to topic maybe they are doing this right by focusing on the App, full co-op can mitigate that last point

 

 

I think when introducing Descent to a group, it is best to start with an app campaign or two.  Start with Rise of All goblins to get everyone understanding the mechanics and rules (some of the side quests are great too) in a way that is non-bias and non-combative. After that you can run either a full Road to Legend campaign, or bring up the concept of a human over-lord.  It may also be better to try one or two 'single encounter' quests as an epic variant or start one of the mini-campaigns (we did Trollfens over the long weekend and had a blast) to introduce the idea of 'Descent as Chess' to your group and get them into the idea of playing the long game and that its possible to lose.

 

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2 minutes ago, Silidus said:

 

 

I think when introducing Descent to a group, it is best to start with an app campaign or two.  Start with Rise of All goblins to get everyone understanding the mechanics and rules (some of the side quests are great too) in a way that is non-bias and non-combative. After that you can run either a full Road to Legend campaign, or bring up the concept of a human over-lord.  It may also be better to try one or two 'single encounter' quests as an epic variant or start one of the mini-campaigns (we did Trollfens over the long weekend and had a blast) to introduce the idea of 'Descent as Chess' to your group and get them into the idea of playing the long game and that its possible to lose.

 

I think Road to Legend is a good way to teach the game and then I'd suggest mini campaigns or the delve. A full campaign can be a lot to get a group to commit to right off the bat these days.

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Personnally, I want expansions for the "standard" game because if not fond of the app. And thoses types of expansion boxes can also bring stuff to the app.

If possible, I want boxes with monster, class, items, and all. But if it's impossible for FFG, a campaign book like Heirs of blood would be enough to me !

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