Crime Lord Special not enough resources

[zmanfarlee 0]

What happens if you play Confidence on a Crime Lord Special but the owner of Crime Lord has 4 resources?

[TheGuardian118 321]

What does the card say? Resolve or remove. If they can't resolve it for whatever reason, whether because it's blank, lack or resources, or is a modifier; they only have one option.

[CBowser 140]

It doesn't say "Resolve or remove", it says "Choose an opponent's die and force them to resolve it, if able."

I believe if they are unable to play the cost, they can't resolve the die, and thus nothing happens.

[TheGuardian118 321]

8 minutes ago, CBowser said:

It doesn't say "Resolve or remove", it says "Choose an opponent's die and force them to resolve it, if able."

I believe if they are unable to play the cost, they can't resolve the die, and thus nothing happens.

Ah you're right. I was thinking of another card, Doubt if memory serves. (which at the moment I doubt it does. lol)

[zmanfarlee 0]

So the issue is they can resolve the die because there is no cost to resolve the special.  Paying 5 resources is part of the effect.  The argument on FB right now is people saying die resolves no character is killed and die goes back to card.  Other side says the 5 resource cost means it cant be resolved.

[TheGuardian118 321]

Ok, finally went to look up the cards and RRG instead of trusting my memory.

Crime Lord special: Spend 5 resources to choose a character. The character is defeated at the end of the round.

Confidence: Choose an opponents die and force them to resolve it, if able.

Resolving a special means following the text on the card. Part of resolving this special specifically includes spending five resources. If you can't pay, you are unable to resolve. If you can't resolve, the die stays where it is when using Confidence. 

 

 

 

Doubt: Reroll an opponents die. That opponent either resolves that die or removes it. (Including this since I confused the card with the one in question and want to prevent further confusion)

 

[Kyle Ren 6,817]

You can play a card and do nothing with it even if you can't do what it says to do. For example, I can play Surgical Strike if I have no dice in my pool, it just doesn't remove any of my opponent's supports or do anything other than playing the card to my discard pile.

I don't think you can do the same for dice - so a similar example: BB-8's special says to reroll BB-8's die and another die. Can I resolve that special even if BB-8 is my only dice left in the pool? Because that's the same thing - you need to do that first sentence to resolve his special, and that first sentence says to reroll his die and another die. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Kieransi

[Tybrid 36]

15 minutes ago, TheGuardian118 said:

Ok, finally went to look up the cards and RRG instead of trusting my memory.

Crime Lord special: Spend 5 resources to choose a character. The character is defeated at the end of the round.

Confidence: Choose an opponents die and force them to resolve it, if able.

Resolving a special means following the text on the card. Part of resolving this special specifically includes spending five resources. If you can't pay, you are unable to resolve. If you can't resolve, the die stays where it is when using Confidence. 

 

 

 

Doubt: Reroll an opponents die. That opponent either resolves that die or removes it. (Including this since I confused the card with the one in question and want to prevent further confusion)

 

So, you're wrong. The flow chart looks like this:

Resolve special - go to effect

 Effect- spend 5 resources to choose a character.

Complete as much of effect as possible.

Don't have 5 resources, don't choose a character.

Special is finished resolving, move the die to the card.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Tybrid

[Tybrid 36]

7 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

You can play a card and do nothing with it even if you can't do what it says to do. For example, I can play Surgical Strike if I have no dice in my pool, it just doesn't remove any of my opponent's supports or do anything other than playing the card to my discard pile.

I don't think you can do the same for dice - so a similar example: BB-8's special says to reroll BB-8's die and another die. Can I resolve that special even if BB-8 is my only dice left in the pool? Because that's the same thing - you need to do that first sentence to resolve his special, and that first sentence says to reroll his die and another die. 

Always complete as much of an ability as possible. Targeting doesn't apply in destiny like it does in Magic. You can exhaust a Backup Muscle with no tokens on it to move no tokens for example.

 

[Buhallin 4,563]

26 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

you need to do that first sentence to resolve his special, and that first sentence says to reroll his die and another die. 

Unless it includes "then", parts of an ability aren't dependent.  So you do as much as you can, then move on to the next.  If BB-8 read "Reroll another die.  Then, roll this die back into your pool" or "Reroll another die to reroll this one", then it would work as you suggest.

 

[TheGuardian118 321]

9 minutes ago, Tybrid said:

So, you're wrong. The flow chart looks like this:

Resolve special - go to effect

 Effect- spend 5 resources to choose a character.

Complete as much of effect as possible.

Don't have 5 resources, don't choose a character.

Special is finished resolving, move the die to the card.

 

Can you refer to where you are getting this flow chart? I'd love to be wrong as it would make Confidence marginally better if it could prevent specials from being rerolled or make them trigger at inopportune times, but I don't know that I am. If you can't do any of the effect, you do none of it. If you can do part of it, you do as much as you can.

 

This is what the RRG says about the Special symbol that I found:

Page 9: "Uses the special ability marked by a * symbol on that die’s card. Specials have a value of 0 that cannot be increased or decreased."

Page 17: "When a die with that symbol is resolved, the special ability on its matching card is resolved."

Based on how that is phrased the special ability wording is what should be printed on the die, but for space it's symbolized with the little icon. If you can't resolve the wording you can't resolve the die. I don't see an option or example in the RRG of resolving a special die without resolving the special effect, or at least part of it. It says "When" not "After". Resolving the effect, or at least part of it, is inherent to resolving the die

 

New question, would you say the owner of the die could spend an action to resolve specials without any effect? Strategically a reason to do this would be just to get die out of the pool to prevent say a Slave 1 special from doing a little extra damage. If so, where is that referenced? If not, why does Confidence allow resolution with no effect?

 

The one example in the RRG I found of resolving a special to no practical effect is on page 27 with Cunning and Sith Holocron. In that example though cunning still did as much as it could in that it targeted the holocron's special, but the rules of the game prevent you from having an opponent's card in your hand/deck/discard. In that example it goes Resolve cunning special. Choose another special on the board; there is one on board so this can be done. Player picks SH which attempts to resolve but fails. Part of the cunning special did occur so the die was resolved.

[Tybrid 36]

It's all in the wording. The special just gives you the OPTION to spend 5 resources to choose a character. It does not say Spend 5 resources AND choose a character.

 

[Tybrid 36]

Double Post.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Tybrid
Double Post

[TheGuardian118 321]

2 minutes ago, Tybrid said:

It's all in the wording. The special just gives you the OPTION to spend 5 resources to choose a character. It does not say Spend 5 resources AND choose a character.

 

Can you explain your reasoning? Would you say spending an action to resolve a 2 ranged damage side means you have the option of dealing two damage or requires that you choose a character and deal two damage? Where is a different set of rules for resolving specials referred to?

[Tybrid 36]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian118 said:

Can you explain your reasoning? Would you say spending an action to resolve a 2 ranged damage side means you have the option of dealing two damage or requires that you choose a character and deal two damage? Where is a different set of rules for resolving specials referred to?

The difference between "Spend 5 resources AND choose a character" and "Spend 5 resources TO choose a character" as explained by the quote above, and here for reference.

"Players must resolve as much of an ability as they are able to, unless it includes the word “may” or explicitly gives the player a choice. Special abilities (S) are mandatory if that side of its die is resolved."

The TO explicitly gives choice in the special ability. The "Or don't spend 5 resources to choose a character" is the implied part.

 

[Buhallin 4,563]

I disagree with Tybrid on the optional nature - Crime Lord says "Spend 5 resources to choose a character. That character is defeated after this round ends.".  There's no "may", so once it's triggered you have to resolve the ability.  It's mandatory.

BUT...  that doesn't mean you are prevented from resolving something if you can't complete it.  So if you chose to or were forced to resolve the die, you CAN resolve the die - you just don't get any effect from it because you can't complete the "Spend 5 resources" part.

[Buhallin 4,563]

18 minutes ago, TheGuardian118 said:

New question, would you say the owner of the die could spend an action to resolve specials without any effect? Strategically a reason to do this would be just to get die out of the pool to prevent say a Slave 1 special from doing a little extra damage. If so, where is that referenced? If not, why does Confidence allow resolution with no effect?

You're coming at this backwards.  The question is not "What says you can resolve specials with no effect".  The question is "Why can't you?"

You're allowed to resolve specials.  When you resolve any ability, you do as much as you're able to.  That's simple enough.

The problem is you're inventing a pre-check that says "If you get no effect from this you can't do it."  That very much DOESN'T exist in Destiny, and there are a number of examples for it.  You cite one of the ones in the FAQ, with Cunning and Holocron.  It literally says "resolves to no effect", not that you can't resolve it at all.

11 minutes ago, TheGuardian118 said:

Can you explain your reasoning? Would you say spending an action to resolve a 2 ranged damage side means you have the option of dealing two damage or requires that you choose a character and deal two damage? Where is a different set of rules for resolving specials referred to?

Nothing in the rules for resolving a damage die says "May", so it would be required.  But at the same time, if for some reason you couldn't deal damage, that wouldn't stop you from resolving the die.  Do as much as you're able to.

[TheGuardian118 321]

Just now, Tybrid said:

The difference between "Spend 5 resources AND choose a character" and "Spend 5 resources TO choose a character" as explained by the quote above, and here for reference.

"Players must resolve as much of an ability as they are able to, unless it includes the word “may” or explicitly gives the player a choice. Special abilities (S) are mandatory if that side of its die is resolved."

The TO explicitly gives choice in the special ability. The "Or don't spend 5 resources to choose a character" is the implied part.

 

Sorry if this is a little too noobish, what does TO stand for? Maybe whatever that is explains the ruling I missed. I read what you wrote with "Explicitly gives the player a choice" to mean that the choice must be explicit. (Example: Rocket Launcher has two explicit choices for Special resolution)

[Tybrid 36]

2 minutes ago, Buhallin said:

I disagree with Tybrid on the optional nature - Crime Lord says "Spend 5 resources to choose a character. That character is defeated after this round ends.".  There's no "may", so once it's triggered you have to resolve the ability.  It's mandatory.

BUT...  that doesn't mean you are prevented from resolving something if you can't complete it.  So if you chose to or were forced to resolve the die, you CAN resolve the die - you just don't get any effect from it because you can't complete the "Spend 5 resources" part.

IF you were correct about that, then the quote I referenced from PG 17 (Special abilities are mandatory if that side of it's die is resolved" comes into effect and you could not resolve the die without the 5 resources.

However, the language again gives choice with the word TO. 

 

[Tybrid 36]

1 minute ago, TheGuardian118 said:

Sorry if this is a little too noobish, what does TO stand for? Maybe whatever that is explains the ruling I missed. I read what you wrote with "Explicitly gives the player a choice" to mean that the choice must be explicit. (Example: Rocket Launcher has two explicit choices for Special resolution)

The word "TO"

To be, or not to be.

to

to͞o,tə/

preposition

 

expressing motion in the direction of (a particular location).

"walking down to the mall"

 

identifying the person or thing affected.

"you were terribly unkind to her"

infinitive marker

 

used with the base form of a verb to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive, in particular.

used without a verb following when the missing verb is clearly understood.

"he asked her to come but she said she didn't want to"

adverb

 

so as to be closed or nearly closed.

"he pulled the door to behind him"

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 minute ago, Tybrid said:

IF you were correct about that, then the quote I referenced from PG 17 (Special abilities are mandatory if that side of it's die is resolved" comes into effect and you could not resolve the die without the 5 resources.

Players must resolve as much of an ability as they are able to, unless it includes the word “may” or explicitly gives the player a choice.

When you resolve an ability, you have to do as much as you can.  When you resolve the Crime Lord special, there's no "may" so it's not optional.  If you have 5 resources, you must spend them to choose a target.  The part about special abilities being mandatory just means there's no inherent choice to them - the comparison is with battlefields.  Claim abilities don't include "may", but they're optional.  Effectively, the optional part of the ability is choosing to resolve the die at all.

This is the same as with Jetpack.  If you resolve Jetpack's special, you can get the shield even if there are no melee dice in the pool.  But if there are any melee dice, you have to remove one, even if it's your die - that part of the ability is not optional.

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 minute ago, Tybrid said:

The word "TO"

To be, or not to be.

to

to͞o,tə/

preposition

 

expressing motion in the direction of (a particular location).

"walking down to the mall"

 

identifying the person or thing affected.

"you were terribly unkind to her"

 

infinitive marker

 

used with the base form of a verb to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive, in particular.

 

used without a verb following when the missing verb is clearly understood.

"he asked her to come but she said she didn't want to"

 

adverb

 

so as to be closed or nearly closed.

"he pulled the door to behind him"

And with all that you didn't manage to get the actual definition for how it's used.

The proper use here is "Do X to Y". such as "Give me a ticket to board the ride."  You have to complete the first part in order to do the second.

[Tybrid 36]

Just now, Buhallin said:

And with all that you didn't manage to get the actual definition for how it's used.

The proper use here is "Do X to Y". such as "Give me a ticket to board the ride."  You have to complete the first part in order to do the second.

I just copied the google search result in an attempt to be funny, but you were successful in derailing that. Good Job.

[Buhallin 4,563]

1 minute ago, Tybrid said:

I just copied the google search result in an attempt to be funny, but you were successful in derailing that. Good Job.

It was never really on the rails in the first place.

[Tybrid 36]

Just now, Buhallin said:

It was never really on the rails in the first place.

You know what they say about opinions.......