Hondo Question

[Frimmel 2,593]

On the move/place/gain end of it I'd make a rules as intended argument in favor of Hondo being a double-crossing scoundrel with schemes within schemes. So given that ships can't have more than one of a command token the whole point is to create chaos and chaos is a ladder. So there is a here take this thing you can't use and that messes up your day and now give me something that I can use. 

Hondo is a little game within the game. This has to be one of the most flavorful cards in either X-wing or Armada. 

 

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

41 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I get where you are going, but deployment is an adjective for turn, where as in HSA, deploy is a verb.

The heading for that bullet point is "deploy ships". Then it talks about "deploying forces" which takes the form of "placing ships" during "deployment turns". HSA talks only about "deploying ships", without any mention of "placing".

My point is that the terms are used interchangeably in this context, inasmuch as "deploying a ship" always involves "placing a ship" (and nothing else). The reverse is of course not necessarily true, as other effects (e.g. movement!) can cause a ship to be picked up then placed.

But yeah, I think we're all in agreement here

[Kiwi Rat 538]

Basically Hondo is best used, when your opponent has two or more command tokens on his ships, while you don't have any.

You steal the two tokens you fancy the most, your opponent can't steal any from you and may not wish to move any remaining tokens around on his ships, as they already are assigned to the ships that need them the most.

 

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Basically Hondo is best used, when your opponent has two or more command tokens on his ships, while you don't have any.

You steal the two tokens you fancy the most, your opponent can't steal any from you and may not wish to move any remaining tokens around on his ships, as they already are assigned to the ships that need them the most.

 

Your opponent must place 2 tokens. Hondo does not say friendly or enemy ship, it just says ship. I do not think you get to steal tokens from your opponents ships and they don't get to take any from you.

[Tokra 2,147]

21 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Basically Hondo is best used, when your opponent has two or more command tokens on his ships, while you don't have any.

You steal the two tokens you fancy the most, your opponent can't steal any from you and may not wish to move any remaining tokens around on his ships, as they already are assigned to the ships that need them the most.

 

It seems you have missed something. You are not using the tokens that are on the field.

You are placing 4 new tokens.

[Kiwi Rat 538]

12 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Your opponent must place 2 tokens. Hondo does not say friendly or enemy ship, it just says ship. I do not think you get to steal tokens from your opponents ships and they don't get to take any from you.

Uhm... the word "must" is not on the card. So if there are only two tokens in total in play, how is your opponent supposed to move two tokens around, when those there are in play is not available to move around. 

Further more when the term ship is used it is not tied to being friendly or enemy, so as  written, it is any ship in play. And this plays very well into the character of Hondo who plays both sides of the fence

[Kiwi Rat 538]

2 minutes ago, Tokra said:

It seems you have missed something. You are not using the tokens that are on the field.

You are placing 4 new tokens.

Aha! That puts things in a different light, I stand corrected 

[Darth Lupine 1,556]

1 minute ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Uhm... the word "must" is not on the card. So if there are only two tokens in total in play, how is your opponent supposed to move two tokens around, when those there are in play is not available to move around. 

Further more when the term ship is used it is not tied to being friendly or enemy, so as  written, it is any ship in play. And this plays very well into the character of Hondo who plays both sides of the fence

You are NOT moving or stealing tokens from anywhere. You are taking four unused tokens and putting them on ships.

[Undeadguy 5,749]

2 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Uhm... the word "must" is not on the card. So if there are only two tokens in total in play, how is your opponent supposed to move two tokens around, when those there are in play is not available to move around. 

Further more when the term ship is used it is not tied to being friendly or enemy, so as  written, it is any ship in play. And this plays very well into the character of Hondo who plays both sides of the fence

It doesn't need must if you're not stealing tokens. 

You use Hondo and you name 2 commands. You get to place a token for each command onto 2 different ships. Then your opponent gets the other 2 commands and their tokens to place on 2 different ships.

[Kiwi Rat 538]

Just now, Darth Lupine said:

You are NOT moving or stealing tokens from anywhere. You are taking four unused tokens and putting them on ships.

Read my post before yours

 

[Darth Lupine 1,556]

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

Read my post before yours

 

Yeah, got Ninja'd. 

[Kiwi Rat 538]

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

It doesn't need must if you're not stealing tokens. 

You use Hondo and you name 2 commands. You get to place a token for each command onto 2 different ships. Then your opponent gets the other 2 commands and their tokens to place on 2 different ships.

Read my post before yours

[Undeadguy 5,749]

17 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

Read my post before yours

Yours popped up after I commented haha

[Kiwi Rat 538]

Just now, Undeadguy said:

Yours popped up after I commented haha

Im sneaky like Hondo 

You could say I did a Hondo on you 

[thecactusman17 3,192]

 

On 7/13/2017 at 5:42 AM, Undeadguy said:

How does Hondo work? The first time I read him, I read it as "Take 2 different command tokens that are in game and place them on 2 ships. Then your opponent takes 2 different command tokens you did not choose and place them on 2 ships."

I feel like this is wrong and what you should be doing is picking 2 commands and getting a token for each 1 and placing 1 on a ship and then your opponent gets the other 2 commands. The only reason I don't think that is correct is because of the last sentence on the card. It says "Then your opponent chooses 2 different command tokens you did not choose and places them on different ships."

Since the game only has 4 commands, why wouldn't the card read "Then your opponent places a token on a ship for the other 2 commands you did not choose."

Are you supposed to take 2 command tokens from ships that are carrying them? Or you do pick a command and get 2 tokens?

Does that make sense?

The card is written oddly to ensure that no interpretation involves either player picking two of the same command, or a command that was chosen by the other player.  There is no English variation I'm aware of where Hondo's ability could be argued to let either player choose a command that was already chosen.

[Geodes 111]

On 7/13/2017 at 1:24 PM, Undeadguy said:

You use Hondo and you name 2 commands. You get to place a token for each command onto 2 different ships. Then your opponent gets the other 2 commands and their tokens to place on 2 different ships.

If your opponent does not have space for commands, can they opt to not take them? If they do have space for commands, can they opt to not take them? If they don't have space, are they forced to replace current tokens?

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

You must take the tokens, this is non-optional.

However, if the tokens exceed the allowed limits, you can then either discard them or discard some other token instead.

[Megatronrex 2,867]

12 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

You must take the tokens, this is non-optional.

However, if the tokens exceed the allowed limits, you can then either discard them or discard some other token instead.

Does your opponent have to though? There's no use of must on the card so wouldn't it be optional?

[DiabloAzul 2,636]

It's optional to discard the card at the start of the ship phase. Once that has been done, the rest is non-optional.

[Frimmel 2,593]

12 hours ago, Geodes said:

If your opponent does not have space for commands, can they opt to not take them? If they do have space for commands, can they opt to not take them? If they don't have space, are they forced to replace current tokens?

Take a 1 command ship that already has a Nav token. This ship gets "Hondo-ed" and is assigned a CF token. This ship now has to many tokens and per the rules of command tokens must either discard the Nav or the CF token.

So the trick you're trying to pull off with Hondo is ending up with two or more new tokens you want and your opponent ending up with no new tokens. This is likely to end up more complicated than it appears on the surface.

I don't think you're going to be able to use this to discard tokens from the enemy since they'll have a choice to discard the Hondo token instead of the one they're holding. 

[Geodes 111]

On 7/13/2017 at 10:12 AM, Tokra said:

Important: It does not say friendly. If your opponent has only one ship left, he has to place one token on one of your ships.
 

Is this true? Also, if you do not have a space, are you able to replace a token for the new one?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

14 minutes ago, Geodes said:

Is this true? Also, if you do not have a space, are you able to replace a token for the new one?

Yes.  You have to place 2 tokens on 2 ships.  They do not have to be friendly.

 

However,

Whenever your ship has tokens beyond its limit, it must discard tokens until its under its limit...  You have a choice of removing which tokens...  So you can keep the one you just added (discarding an existing token), or discard the one you just added, if you don't care for it.

 

RRG, Page 3 - "Command Tokens"

• When a ship is assigned a command token, if it has more command tokens than its command value, it must immediately discard one of its command tokens.

• When a ship is assigned a command token, if it already has a copy of that command token, it must immediately discard that command token.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Drasnighta

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

Finally I found this topic. 

I probably won't bring here nothing new but I would like to ask this cause my knowledge of English is not great. Basically my line of thinking goes through the fact that adjectives don't modify adjectives. Command is a noun but here is working as an adjective and as such is treated so, shorty: different cannot modify command. Would not be "two different commands" then? 

This way all we know is that the tokens must different tokens not tokens of different commands. If that is true, then to choose from the "token pool" have no sense with that limitation.

Just a thought. 

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

4 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Finally I found this topic. 

I probably won't bring here nothing new but I would like to ask this cause my knowledge of English is not great. Basically my line of thinking goes through the fact that adjectives don't modify adjectives. Command is a noun but here is working as an adjective and as such is treated so, shorty: different cannot modify command. Would not be "two different commands" then? 

This way all we know is that the tokens must different tokens not tokens of different commands. If that is true, then to choose from the "token pool" have no sense with that limitation.

Just a thought. 

"Different" modifies "token." It specifies that the two tokens have to be different from each other.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

14 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

"Different" modifies "token." It specifies that the two tokens have to be different from each other.

So it must be different command (as type of) tokens but not tokens of different command. Right?